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    "Self-install" FTTC trial in Q1 2013

    This is a discussion on "Self-install" FTTC trial in Q1 2013 within the Sky Broadband (Fibre) Help forums, part of the Sky Broadband help and support category; Responses inline (easier for me) Originally Posted by chrcol that product already exists SFI engineer comes out, fixes home wiring, ...

    1. #11
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      Re: "Self-install" FTTC trial in Q1 2013

      Responses inline (easier for me)



      Quote Originally Posted by chrcol View Post
      that product already exists

      SFI engineer comes out, fixes home wiring, fee sent to CP (aka sky) and then fee passed on to end user

      End user wiring module as part of SFI2, Had forgotten about that.



      This thread has made me laugh tho as you guys seem to think the average house has a messy wiring setup with extension sockets and so on.

      That's Certainly the case with quite a lot of places I've been, including some absolutely shocking extension wiring installed by Sky installers for the STB to connect to.

      Of all the people I know personally not a single one has more than one BT socket in their house, they all only have the master socket and nothing else, so no ring wires etc. However a few do put in their routers at the end of long phone extensions.

      Is the master socket in a sensible place? I've seen a fair few that weren't including one that somehow ended up in the ceiling of a downstairs toilet! No idea if it's a case that a downstairs bathroom was added after the socket was installed or if BT really did put it there as that's where the external cable happened to come in.

      ON the subject of noise affecting vdsl more than adsl I sort of disagree.

      I put it this way.

      Pretend you have a room full of people talking to each other, that talking is the dsl signal. On a shorter line they talk louder, on a longer line they whisper. Then someone shouts at you from across the room, that someone is external noise. So in the room where they talk louder, the person shouting at you is less audible and drowned out by the other people (dsl signal).

      The way I see it is this.

      First of all if there is noise ingress on the e-side, it will be gone on vdsl2, because the e-side gets filtered at the cabinet. That is the case for me, my adsl service I had before had serious major issues with noise. Now my vdsl2 service doesnt even have variance on the snrm at night, its solid 24/7. Which leads me to my next point.

      Noise ingress on the d-side such as radio signals will always be the same strength as they were before (unless the source changed) yet fttc reduces loop length, which decreases attenuation which boosts dsl signal strength which in turn makes the dsl signal more powerful vs external noise. So now eg. the radio interference I got at night on adsl is not visible on my vdsl. Because my vdsl has attenuation of 10db vs 50db I had on adsl.

      I do accept with the wider frequency range there is more chances of noise ingress but that noise ingress will be weaker unless its a long fttc line from the cabinet. But on average a typical fttc line is 1/4 the length of a typical exchange line.

      Whilst you are connect that any noise between the exchange and the PCP will no longer be a problem it all depends on where the noise is being introduced.

      Quite a lot of the noise is internal, i.e badly shielded PSU's etc, VDSL2 uses a much broader spectrum than ADSL2+ but also I believe the TX power across the band is lower (Could be wrong there) Internal wiring, perticullarly the ring wire can act like a giant antenna picking up all sorts of unwanted crap

      I'd love to be more specific but i'd need to research the standards further then read the ANFP to find the allowable power levels on the BT network. That's if I can get hold of a recent enough revision of the document to include the VDSL2 stuff and manage to stay awake through it.

      G.INP and Vectoring will certainly help with noise and crosstalk if BT roll it out but it's not a magic it can't fix everything.

      The reason this wires only is coming is obvious.

      BT have a severe shortage of engineers and are resorting to using kellys etc. for FTTC installs, they were probably faced with 2 solutions. Either hire much more staff (costs money) or reduce install overheads (wires only) which also will make consumers happy as they no longer need to sit in waiting for engineers to show up. I agree there is downsides eg. no line checks and proper faceplates. But the upside will be no waiting for 2 months for an install date and then having the engineer not show up.

      Also the other point being with the current setup anything upto the Ethernet port on the FTTC modem is not the responsibly of the end user also having a managed modem should give BT the ability to do a proper end2end test.


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    3. #12
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      Re: "Self-install" FTTC trial in Q1 2013

      I agree I read about these instances a lot on forums, but remember people dont usually post on forums when all is well, they post when they looking for help, so inevitably it will seem like the majority of people have messy extensions and so on.

      Does the average person live in a mansion? no. In fact now days living space is reducing with houses been converted to flats etc. So whilst there will be people living in large properties with multiple socket, I dont believe it to be a majority of properties.

      Also with the current situation of bodge jobs done by kelly engineers etc. like the story I just read on here where a engineer proceeded to put a vdsl faceplate on a extension socket, things arent necessarily much better.

      I am not scoffing and you shouldnt have said that , I am merely posting my point of view that the wires only option is not a bad idea. The engineer install's will still be an option and its down to the isp's to make it available or not.

      - - - Updated - - -

      Quote Originally Posted by dragon2611 View Post
      Responses inline (easier for me)





      Also the other point being with the current setup anything upto the Ethernet port on the FTTC modem is not the responsibly of the end user also having a managed modem should give BT the ability to do a proper end2end test.
      I forgot to mention crosstalk, that sort of noise is brutal on vdsl and most defenitly worse than adsl, and yes very looking forward to vectoring given the impact its had on my line.

      You are correct transmit power is lower on vdsl, but if attenuation is high, that power is drained before it hits the end user's modem. So a lower transmit power on a short line is more powerful than a stronger transmit power on a long line.

      It is interesting you mentioned local noise as well ring wires psu's etc. This is what got to my head in my adsl days.

      BT were adamant back then my noise must be local to me, they just refused to accept anything else, as if its in their DNA there possibly could be nothing wrong with their side of the nte5 socket. Now after my cabinet got FTTC enabled the first thing they admitted to me was there is a known serious noise ingress e-side but never got dealt with due to cost. Then there is the obvious fact anyone with lines fed over poles will be picking up noisee interference as well from radio signals etc. The amount of time I wasted in my flat looking for local noise added up to 100s of hours, a wild goose chase. So I do see this theory that the majority of noise is local to people as a red herring used to distract from faults. yes I am sceptical based on my past experience.
      Last edited by chrcol; 04-01-13 at 02:57 PM.

    4. #13
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      Re: "Self-install" FTTC trial in Q1 2013

      Quote Originally Posted by chrcol View Post

      Does the average person live in a mansion? no. In fact now days living space is reducing with houses been converted to flats etc. So whilst there will be people living in large properties with multiple socket, I dont believe it to be a majority of properties.

      Don't get me started in the telephone wiring done by Builders/Electricians in new build flats.

      Actually given the state of the wiring between the comms room and each flat in some buildings I'd hate to think just how much trouble VDSL2 is going to have.

    5. #14
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      Re: "Self-install" FTTC trial in Q1 2013

      Quote Originally Posted by dragon2611 View Post
      Don't get me started in the telephone wiring done by Builders/Electricians in new build flats.

      Actually given the state of the wiring between the comms room and each flat in some buildings I'd hate to think just how much trouble VDSL2 is going to have.
      I can imagine its probably a rush job

      but do these sort of issues really get fixed now on engineer installs?

    6. #15
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      Re: "Self-install" FTTC trial in Q1 2013

      I am not scoffing and you shouldnt have said that ,
      Then you shouldn't say things like -

      This thread has made me laugh tho as you guys.......
      Which led me to the conclusion you were

      TomD


      Please note the views and recommendations in my posts are my own and in no way reflect the views of SkyUser.


      Useful Utilites

      https://www.nirsoft.net/utils/wifi_information_view.html/ TCPOptimiser /Test Socket

      Note - When downloading always select the Custom install or you will end up with stuff you don't want.





    7. #16
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      Re: "Self-install" FTTC trial in Q1 2013

      Quote Originally Posted by chrcol View Post
      I can imagine its probably a rush job

      but do these sort of issues really get fixed now on engineer installs?
      Wiring inside the flat, hopefully...

      Crap cable/wiring from the comms room, probably not sadly.

      Personally I think Any Sizable block of flats should be FTTP and then ethernet or similar internally.
      Makes more sense, perticullarly on new builds, yet no one seems to be doing it

    8. #17
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      Re: "Self-install" FTTC trial in Q1 2013

      There are several developers including fibre in their new estates. Large firms are realising the importance of high speed links especially in what amounts to 'dormitory' estates. Several in Scotland and no doubt England are being outfitted right from the start. I believe the Olympic Games village in London was so equipped as will be the Commonwealth village in Glasgow. I think developers are now being dragged into the 21st century.

      TomD


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      Note - When downloading always select the Custom install or you will end up with stuff you don't want.





    9. #18
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      Re: "Self-install" FTTC trial in Q1 2013

      Quote Originally Posted by dragon2611 View Post
      The same could be said for sky if you know the vlan and can manipulate the dhcp client you can probably do it.
      The VLAN Id isn't a problem, it's 101. There are a growing number of routers that support MER with DHCP Option 61 as long as you can get the a username amd password out of a Sky router. Apparently the Huawei modem that Openreach supplies supports it once you've unlocked it and set it up as a router.

     

     
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