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    MI5 'secretly collected phone data' for decade

    This is a discussion on MI5 'secretly collected phone data' for decade within the General chat forums, part of the Community channel category; Originally Posted by marjohn56 IGoogle has more information about you than the government will ever have! Google is a global ...

    1. #11
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      Re: MI5 'secretly collected phone data' for decade

      Quote Originally Posted by marjohn56 View Post
      IGoogle has more information about you than the government will ever have!

      Google is a global government conspiracy, were you not aware of that?
      I'm busy relaxing after a hard day, I'll read it later, rip it to pieces and then I'll respond.
      Please just leave the taxi ordering alone when you do, cheers.


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    3. #12
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      Re: MI5 'secretly collected phone data' for decade

      Ok, It's a beautiful sunny day outside, crisp and clear and I intend to take advantage of it, but I'll answer gymno first.

      Firstly, there is nothing new in your post, basically just a re-hashed repeat of the last RevK's rants, he was wrong then, and he's still wrong, IMHO.

      Quote Originally Posted by gymno View Post
      RevK's rants: Snooper's Charter 101 Please share

      It's the opinion of somebody who runs an isp marjohn56.
      Somebody who, this week attended a meeting at the home office to discuss such matters.
      And as such this is just his opinion, it doesn't make it automatically correct just because he works for an ISP. What he should state at the bottom of the diatribe is that it is HIS/HER opionion and is in no way the opinion of his/her employer, even if it is.

      But where do we expect privacy?

      When we are at home, or pretty much anywhere behind closed doors, we expect privacy.

      Now there are those that say "if you have nothing to hide you have nothing to fear", which is, to be frank, bull****. None of those people want a public web cam in their toilet or bedroom, strangely enough, and they won't tell me their card details and first pet's name either.
      You want privacy, don't use the internet, pretty simple really. It always amazes me the 'bleeters' who go on about privacy, then go and post thier life story on Facebook el al.
      How do you equate storing web browsing history, which is what the fuss is all about with cameras in bedrooms and pets names and credit card details?


      So, I think we can agree that whilst some things we do are not basically private and we have no right to privacy, there are places where we can go and things we can do where we expect privacy and to be quite frank we are entitled to it.
      Some things are private - true, when you go on the internet you are surfing sites that are in the public domain, if it's SSL encrypted it's not readable to anyone whilst in transit, so storing that data is useless, but they are NOT storing that data. If it's NOT SSL then it's like going down to the local library, unless you are trying to hide yourself using TOR.

      Entitlement Entitlement... Everyone thinks they are entitled these days as an automatic right. We are entitled to almost nothing. You may be entitled to free care on the NHS, I used to be entitled to free dental care too, I'm not anymore, times change and so does life. We get what we are given, some of us work harder to get more. The only thing we are entitled to is to complain that we should be entitled to something, dream on.

      The problem is that what we do on the Internet is a lot more revealing about us that what phone calls we make. Privacy International have loads on this (here) and a great video on metadata, which is supposed to be the what, when, who, how, but not the content of what you do on the Internet.
      Indeed it is, but I do not think looking at the Black Frday sales on the John Lewis website is of much interest to anyone. However, if you are surfing kiddy porn or trying to find out how to build bombs to kill people with, then that IS of interest, and I would guess most people would agree ( not you gynmo we know you don't agree ) that the agencies that try to keep us all safe should know about it, and be able to track these miscreants down.

      The video is lovely, just goes to show how much info the likes of Googe, Microsoft, Apple and the like have on us, that data is already stored by them, absolutely nothing new there at all.

      The new law wants to collect a lot of this metadata about all of your Internet access. What is worse is that they want your Internet Service Provider to collect it and store it for a year and make it available to the authorities if they ask. Do you trust that your ISP will not get hacked? Even if they are pretty good now, they will become a juicy target for hacking very soon.
      So this is what the problem is, he does not think the ISP's are secure enough, he works for them so its nice of him to tell us, well that is thier problem, or perhaps you would rather all the data be forwarded to GCHQ to start with, then the ISP's would not have to worry about it.

      But let's try some facts here shall we...


      • Terrorist attacks, one of the main justifications for all of this, remain one of the lowest threats to your life. There are way more people that died from suicide because of changes to the "Fit to work" assessments than died in recent terrorist attacks in Europe. The justification is scaremongering and bogus. Let me be clear - I do not need protecting from terrorists!
      So he does not want them to try and protect us from terrorists, I hope his family agree with him and that he will never be a victim. I on the other hand would sort of like it if our security agencies did all that was possible to try and prevent attacks, and generally they do. As the IRA once said, the security forces need to be lucky all the time, the IRA only had to be lucky once.

      But it gets worse - the Internet is just not like the phone network, and the logs they want don't exist. What logs they can get are likely to be unhelpful (they seem confused that a phone does not just connect to twitter, but actually stays connected all day every day). And over time they will get less and less data as changes in the Internet make it more secure (to combat criminals).

      It is also true that criminals can cover their tracks with ease. Simply using secure messaging systems like iMessage, but with a bit of googling you can be way more secure. So the real targets, the serious criminals, and the terrorists, can hide already and always will be able to hide.
      Good isn't it, stays connected all day... easy answer, if you are that bothered, ON/OFF switch, works like a charm I find. He's actually shot himself in the foot by saying over a period of time it will be less useful, so it is useful now then?

      With the advent of Quantum computing, there will be no secure data anyway, only the network itself could be made secure... perhaps.

      OK, so we'll just not bother then, and we'll all just take our chances?

      No thanks, for a change I'll back the government on this one.
      Last edited by marjohn56; 28-11-15 at 12:27 PM.
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    4. #13
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      Re: MI5 'secretly collected phone data' for decade

      I hope that it has not become forgotten that tapping a line goes back a long time. Due to the repercussions caused and the abuse that soon became evident, laws were passed to prevent this from being the norm.

      The history of electronic surveillance, from Abraham Lincoln's wiretaps to Operation Shamrock | Public Radio International

      We are supposed to have in this country of ours the freedom to express ourselves. Of course there are some constraints so I wouldn't recommend that you run naked through the streets where you live. The Americans go on about their freedom of speech but often forget the responsibility that comes with such freedoms. It is an offence to shout 'bomb' in a crowded area, for example.

      Tapping a telephone line in order to listen in on your private conversations should never be allowed to happen without good cause. For this reason the Police need to get a warrant. In order to satisfy the judge they need to show that they have good evidence that something untoward is going on. There are also restrictions on what they can listen to.

      There are many perfectly legal reasons why many people living and working in the UK wold be unhappy with anyone listening in on their conversations. Imagine if Virgin Media were planning to launch a new TV channel that would compete against Sky? They'd never have a chance to surprise Sky if this were public knowledge before the event.

      Now whilst there are going to be many people out there having affairs, I do not think that it is right that you and I should know about them as it has nothing to do with our private life. Of course if it were someone close to you or I then that might seem a little hard to accept, but it is still not our business.

      In the words of Dr House : "Everybody lies"

      As for trawling every telephone conversation in order to catch that one single clue or missing detail, no that is wrong.

      All this should equally be applied to our electronic communications via the Internet.

      There are many private things which people have used in the past to cause great harm to others. Careers have been destroyed. Lives lost. Families left in tatters.

      There is no excuse for anyone to just collect all this information whether in part or whole.

      Remember that whether or not they intend to use it is irrelevant. If they don't intend to use it, why keep it even for a year? If they don't need to keep it, why collect it in the first place?

      Hackers love the fact that companies and Governments keep all this information on us. It gives them something to look for and to sell to the right buyer. Just remember that too when you start to consider where this information is being held.

      When the Police set up the PNC they wanted access to the DWP records. Quite rightly they were told that this would never happen. The information held there is just way too sensitive and would provide personal links between people that the Police would never have understood. Sure it might have helped to resolve some crimes, but many innocent people would have been harmed.

      Sure "intelligence" can help to find and prosecute criminals. Whether it is a local thief or a terrorist, they are a criminal. However our country does have a very specific point of law that we should never ever forget...

      Innocent until proven Guilty.

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    5. #14
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      Re: MI5 'secretly collected phone data' for decade

      Remember that whether or not they intend to use it is irrelevant. If they don't intend to use it, why keep it even for a year? If they don't need to keep it, why collect it in the first place?
      How do they know in advance that it may prove a case against someone or that someone is planning a crime? Unless we have investigators who are psychic then we are always using historical or real time evidence, unless that is you believe in 'Future Crime' as portayed by little Tom.

      Hackers love the fact that companies and Governments keep all this information on us. It gives them something to look for and to sell to the right buyer. Just remember that too when you start to consider where this information is being held.
      Indeed, but surely that is not an excuse not to have the data or access to the data in the first place? What it means is that security must be paramount, not the we give up because someone may hack it.

      When the Police set up the PNC they wanted access to the DWP records. Quite rightly they were told that this would never happen. The information held there is just way too sensitive and would provide personal links between people that the Police would never have understood. Sure it might have helped to resolve some crimes, but many innocent people would have been harmed.
      And quite right too, however the data they are seeking to have access to is NOT of that type.

      Sure "intelligence" can help to find and prosecute criminals. Whether it is a local thief or a terrorist, they are a criminal. However our country does have a very specific point of law that we should never ever forget...
      The law is an ever evolving and changing beast, as is crime and the threats against the population, we must accept that and adapt or die, and also be stuck with outdated laws.

      Innocent until proven Guilty.
      Says who? It's a bit late to think that when a suicide bomber has just killed and maimed twenty innocent people don't you think?


      Last edited by marjohn56; 28-11-15 at 03:47 PM.
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      Re: MI5 'secretly collected phone data' for decade

      Hold on, Innocent until Proven Guilty.

      Check that with any Lawyer.

      It's in our Laws.

      Time and time again dictators have repealed that one. Time and time again we criticise those dictators. Do not let the thought of a suicide bomber help us to lose it.

      If the data is going to be accessible to someone, then hackers will want to crack the door and get in. It might take them a day. It might take them 10 years. They will want to get it.

      As for everything else, please ask yourself why we should have a need for the Equality Act (2010).

      If people were nice to one another all the time, never held prejudices against others, never made others feel unwelcome, never cared whether someone was black, white, pink, green, blue with purple dot, believed in God or didn't believe in God, or happened to believe in more than one God or Goddess or if the happened to believe in the wrong God, perhaps their way of life contradicts what you have been taught as right or wrong, perhaps the sexuality is something you don't like or perhaps their gender history is different to that which it is now, someone somewhere will want to discredit that person.

      The consequences of such information in the wrong hands has already cost lives.

      So until we can all actually stop trying to destroy other people's lives, then I am most definitely against the Government in any shape or form collecting our personal information.

      If you think that you are above all this and that you personally would not be affected by such information becoming public then you are completely missing the point.

      As for catching criminals, which terrorists are, there are many other ways that can legitimately be used to identify and catch them with. The wholesale collection of our personal data is not one of them.

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    7. #16
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      Re: MI5 'secretly collected phone data' for decade

      Sorry Scubbie, you cannot catch these people without using all possible means of gathering intelligence, so we will have to disagree I'm afraid. We do not live in an ideal world and we all have to realise that. There are people out there who would like to take the freedoms we all enjoy and preferably make us cease to exist at all. To continue to enjoy the vast majority of freedoms we enjoy then we have to make sacrifices, and this act is one of them.

      My 'Says who' was to be taken in the context of terrorist suicide bomber, not in the general legal context.
      Last edited by marjohn56; 28-11-15 at 06:50 PM.
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      Re: MI5 'secretly collected phone data' for decade

      All possible means should NEVER put the lives of the innocent at risk.

      I have some close friends whom have been harmed because information that should never have been made public was.

      Someone whom was very close to me not only had such sensitive information shared by idiots, it actually ended up on the front page of a newspaper directly resulting in their home needing the protection of the Police and a child's life being endangered.

      There are 7 specific characteristics which are protected by the Equality Act (2010). They need that protection. They don't need some idiot making that information public.

      The wholesale spying on our personal information by anyone puts millions of lives in danger.

      If you think that this it is acceptable to capture all our personal information in order to protect everyone else, then you and I will have to disagree.

      If you want to learn to kill someone properly then go and join the British Army and be a Private on the front line.

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      Re: MI5 'secretly collected phone data' for decade

      WHERE does personal information come into this? We are talking about web browsing history.

      f you think that this it is acceptable to capture all our personal information in order to protect everyone else, then you and I will have to disagree.

      So you think one person is more important than the rest of the population?

      Of course the vulnerable must be protected but I fail to see how the capturing of web browsing history is going to cause a problem for anyone who has nothing criminal to hide.

      Perhaps I'm being incredibly dense but would you like to explain it in simple terms where the gathering of web traffic data is going to cause someone serious privacy issues.


      If you want to learn to kill someone properly then go and join the British Army and be a Private on the front line.


      There are hundreds of ways to kill someone, what do you mean by properly? I also fail to see where that comment comes into this thread, please explain?
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      Re: MI5 'secretly collected phone data' for decade

      There are many private places on the Internet where people go for support. This is a public forum so is not a suitable place to discuss such private things. That is just one method to put someone's life at risk. It is not for me to divulge all the rest.

      If you do not understand what people legally do on the Internet now, then might I suggest that you find out.

      As for being one person, you really do not grasp what I have said. I said 'friends'. That indicates plural. That means more than one that I personally know. I actually know of many others and there are many other stories in the news where vulnerable people have been harmed. Many other stories never reach the press, thankfully.

      As for the Army, they'll train you up. Give you all the skills you need and equip you with all the necessary tools to kill someone. They will then send you somewhere so that you can use these skills as required.

      Of course not every job will result in a Private killing someone. Most of it at the present time is knowing how to build bridges and help to create a peace.

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      Re: MI5 'secretly collected phone data' for decade

      And I have stated a number of times, there is nothing in this white paper that those who are doing nothing illegal should fear. There will be sufficient protection in that a judicial warrant is required before ANY data is released to anyone.

      If the real concern is about making the data secure, it's not that difficult to make it inaccessible from the internet it would mean you'd have to physically go to the storage location to retrieve it. How about a system that copies data to an encrypted storage system that is write only from the internet interface and can only be read physically from a local terminal. That data is still encrypted until it is un-encrypted by someone not connected to the ISP who has sufficient authority AND the encryption keys.

      I still don't know where the army came into this thread, and you still have not explained what you mean by killing someone properly, if they are dead they are dead. I have never heard someone say 'he was not killed properly, go and do it again'.
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