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    ... and now Sky (amongst others)

    This is a discussion on ... and now Sky (amongst others) within the General chat forums, part of the Community channel category; liberty - definition of liberty in English from the Oxford dictionary liberty The state of being free within society from ...

    1. #21
      gymno's Avatar
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      Re: ... and now Sky (amongst others)

      liberty - definition of liberty in English from the Oxford dictionary
      liberty
      The state of being free within society from oppressive restrictions imposed by authority on one’s behaviour or political views
      So in the uk, has the proliferation of cctv cameras lessened the amount crime?
      Or has the proliferation of speed cameras lessened the amount of road traffic accidents?

      NOPE.

      History tells us that those in power will always use the fear of something to push through legislation which proports to benefit the people but really only benefits them.

      Anyone with half a brain cell is capable of committing the most atrocious act of terrorism without ever going online or talking on the phone.
      So will these further restrictions on my civil liberties mean that i am safer?

      NOPE.

      Really it's our children & children's children that i worry about the most here.
      The thought of growing up in a society devoid of the freedoms i had* is a scary one & doesn't bode well for their mental health for a start.



      * Ideally that would read have, however Edward Snowden happened.


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    3. #22
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      Re: ... and now Sky (amongst others)

      I suspect most of your day to day activities are already pretty well logged.

      Do you use a debit or credit cards?
      I assume you have a national insurance number and therefore medical records?
      If you use any store card such as boots or nectar your shopping habits will be known.
      Do you drive?
      Do you have car insurance?
      Do you vote in local or government elections?

      1984 came and went 31 years ago, however the government has been collecting information on us for decades, they need to so they can plan for the future in many respects. In general terms that data has been kept safe.

      I have, due to my work, a level of clearance to certain government sites, so they know more about me than most as you need to give them details of almost everything except your inside leg measurement, this includes your partner and their family too. Perhaps because of this I have less fear of big brother watching, they've already had a good look!

      It's unfortunate that our security services, and I include the police in that bracket, are often led by or have employed complete muppets; but I certainly do not tar all of them with that brush.
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    4. #23
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      Re: ... and now Sky (amongst others)

      Quote Originally Posted by marjohn56 View Post
      I suspect most of your day to day activities are already pretty well logged.

      Do you use a debit or credit cards?
      I assume you have a national insurance number and therefore medical records?
      If you use any store card such as boots or nectar your shopping habits will be known.
      Do you drive?
      Do you have car insurance?
      Do you vote in local or government elections?

      1984 came and went 31 years ago, however the government has been collecting information on us for decades, they need to so they can plan for the future in many respects. In general terms that data has been kept safe.
      There is a line of social acceptability which needs to be drawn & let's face it, those in power have been sailing very close to it for a few years now.

      The general public have never been consulted on any of these so called 'security' measures.
      They're not brought up during elections or subject to referendum for a reason - they'd be laughed out instantly.
      In a democracy, politicians are supposed to represent not dictate.

      The people simply don't want this level of intrusion in their lives & just because they can't always articulate it doesn't mean they don't instinctively know in their gut what's right.

    5. #24
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      Re: ... and now Sky (amongst others)

      Quote Originally Posted by gymno View Post
      There is a line of social acceptability which needs to be drawn & let's face it, those in power have been sailing very close to it for a few years now.
      The people simply don't want this level of intrusion in their lives & just because they can't always articulate it doesn't mean they don't instinctively know in their gut what's right.

      The 'people' speak every few years, that' s called democracy, just because the result is not what some wanted does not make it any less so. Personally i wouild like the Australian system where its illegal NOT to vote in elections.

      How do you think laws get passed? They have to go through various committee stages through the second chamber and round again. Only emergency measures can be brought into play instantly such as those during the ni troubles, and they have a very limited lifespan, needing to be replaced with laws passed by parliament.

      This is why this particular piece of legislation has been watered down, no-one in their right mind, apart from the home secretary, who i personally think is often guilty of knee jerk reactions, not even those in charge of the security services thought it was a good idea not to have the judiciary involved before anyone would be allowed to look at anything.

      What the people want is to feel they are safe from harm, and if that involves stepping on the privacy toes of few people then so be it. The vast majority of people in this country could not give a damn about online privacy, only the vocal minority.

      Start staring through their bedroom windows though and they'll surely get upset....

      If you want total privacy, to stay off the grid, then give up the internet, pay for everything in cash, don't have any medical problems and don't drive.

      You may be half way there, but only half way...
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    6. #25
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      Re: ... and now Sky (amongst others)

      Quote Originally Posted by marjohn56
      The vast majority of people in this country could not give a damn about online privacy.
      I'm sorry but that is one statement i wholeheartedly disagree with.

      Quote Originally Posted by marjohn56
      What the people want is to feel they are safe from harm.
      Hence the rather unfortunate situation where people no longer feel safe from their own government.
      'The people' haven't trusted 'the government' for a long time.

    7. #26
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      Re: ... and now Sky (amongst others)

      Im sorry gymno, but you and I must be living in different countries.

      How is North Korea or is it China or Russia, Iran or somewhere else you are living in?

      You have freedoms that people in many other countries would, and in many cases do, die for.


      Hence the rather unfortunate situation where people no longer feel safe from their own government.
      'The people' haven't trusted 'the government' for a long time.
      The 'people' have never trusted any government at any time since year dot, nothing new there.

      However they are willing to believe that in general the government of the day would like to be re-elected, this trying to please most of the people some of the time. You cannot please all of the people all of the time or even all of the people some of the time.
      Do you REALLY believe this government is out to get you? Are you a spy or something?

      If you are not, let me assure you that you are perfectly safe, if however you suddenly stop posting I will rethink that.
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    8. #27
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      Re: ... and now Sky (amongst others)

      If the Government wants to clamp down on all the communications we make and enforce marshal law, then that won't be the end of it. There are many countries where such measures are already in place. They have been dealing with violence much worse than we have here for many years.

      Whilst I was working in Egypt there were many check points in and out of the cities and various other towns. All the foreign post was intercepted and it wouldn't surprise me if the telecommunications were monitored too. Sadly they have had a lot of troubles there with a lot of it not getting to our news media.

      The local members of the "secret police" knew who all the foreigners were.

      Whilst we had a better degree of movement than the locals, there were occasions we had to be careful too.

      For the locals though, they have to carry their ID at all times. Failure to do so can mean that they spend 3 days in the local Kalabush. That's a small jail to you and I, but it is worth pointing out that its also a very cold and dark place. Something to think about when the temperature outside would be 35c at night.

      Do we wish to live in a country that treats it's voters, sorry residents, as if they are all potentially nasty people who would revolt and crush the Government in a heartbeat?

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    9. #28
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      Re: ... and now Sky (amongst others)

      People please, paranoia seems to be breaking out....

      Where does Marshall Law being declared come from?

      All that has been proposed, and it will no doubt get many amendments before it makes it to the statutes is that the security services will be able to apply for and IF granted that right by the independent judiciary, look at web browsing history within the last twelve months, nothing more, no death penalty, not arrest and automatic incarceration without trial.
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    10. #29
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      Re: ... and now Sky (amongst others)

      Are we all over reacting? I have just been listening to the news on radio 4 which said, to paraphrase, that the proposed measures for ISPs to make their subscribers browsing history available to government departments has been watered down.

      Checking on the BBC news website the proposals being discussed with Theresa May on the Andrew Marr show sound reasonable and proportionate:

      Theresa May says 'contentious' parts of web surveillance plan dropped - BBC News

      Mrs May told the BBC's Andrew Marr Show: "It doesn't have some of the more contentious powers that were in that (2012) bill.
      "So, for example we won't be requiring communication service providers from in the UK to store third-party data, we won't be making the same requirements in relation to data retention on overseas CSPs.
      "And crucially, we will not be giving powers to go through people's browsing history. That is not what the investigatory powers bill is about."
      She said she would set out the "very strong" oversight and "world-beating" authorisation arrangements for warrants to access more intrusive data when the Investigatory Powers Bill goes before MPs.
      Some of the more contentious powers proposed in the Coalition government's 2012 version of this bill have been removed after listening to industry figures and civil liberties' groups, Mrs May said.
      More than 1,400 warrants authorising more intrusive measures cross the home secretary's desk a year, and she sets aside several hours a day to consider them, she said.
      Ministers have looked at all the arguments about handing over this responsibility to independent judges and the decision will be announced on Wednesday, Mrs May added.
      "Encryption is important for people to be able to keep themselves safe when they are dealing with these modern communications in the digital age but we will be setting out the current position, which does enable the authorities with proper authorisation to issue warrants," she said.
      Edit: It appears that gymno has already beat me to this in another thread:

      http://www.skyuser.co.uk/forum/gener...tml#post455469
      Last edited by seawright; 02-11-15 at 12:04 AM.

    11. #30
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      Re: ... and now Sky (amongst others)

      My point is that every time they take a little, we get ever closer to what they want us to believe they are trying to prevent.

      I have lived and worked in a country where such measures are already in place. I am not suggesting that the UK would ever duplicate everything there, but I am suggesting that each time they take a little we get ever closer.
      gymno likes this.

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