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    Scottish Referendum

    This is a discussion on Scottish Referendum within the General chat forums, part of the Community channel category; Originally Posted by albaT4 Given that Scotland contributes 9.3% of UK tax but receives 9.1% of spending (and the tax ...

    1. #11
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      Re: Scottish Referendum

      Quote Originally Posted by albaT4 View Post
      Given that Scotland contributes 9.3% of UK tax but receives 9.1% of spending (and the tax excludes scotch whisky exports which are counted as English) and if you factor in savings from things like not spending 100 billion on New nukes then what makes you think tax would rise? Scottish government wants to cut not raise corporate tax
      Granted that Scotland does contribute towards the taxation system of the UK as a whole, but there is one major source of income we keep getting reminded of in England which Scotland would control most of.

      Petroleum.

      It is great that this brings in such a huge income. It is good that it keeps the UK in a strong position on the global market.

      However the biggest flaw is never mentioned...

      Oil will run out. It is finite.

      If this is such a major source of income for Scotland, what is going to happen in 50-100 years when it has all gone?

      Anyway, getting back to the issue of the flag of the UK post-Scotland referendum, the BBC received a few more designs:

      BBC News - 25 readers' designs for a new union jack

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    3. #12
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      Re: Scottish Referendum

      North Sea oil on extraction is owned by a multitude of Oil companies not the Scottish nation. Scotland may be able to raise revenue from taxation of the oil and its derivatives at the pump but they do not own any of it when it is extracted. Currently oil tax produces approx $10 billion a year for the UK.

      Admittedly the oil will eventually run out but the Oil companies continue to find ever more ingenious ways to extract more of the existing reserves than they initially thought they would 25 years ago. They are also continuing to find more deposits (admittedly in more difficult locations). The Rosebank field west of the Shetlands is a good example of oil in very deep Atlantic waters that will be very expensive to extract (Chevron have just announced they are canceling their $12 billion investment in Rosebank to extract oil for the moment).

      This is very complex economics as well as leading edge technology. Add the current political uncertainty to the equation and you introduce another uncertainty.

    4. #13
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      The oil fields off the west coast were blocked for development by the UK in the past as they need the way kept clear for nuclear missile subs. If you want to see what you should do to guard against the day when oil runs out, look to Norway. They just spend 4 of the interest received when they invest oil revenue. The UK has spent it all on dole money and tax breaks. Denis Healey also recently admitted they deliberately falsified the amount of oil revenue to stop the Scots realising how much wealth they were sitting on.

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    5. #14
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      Re: Scottish Referendum

      Here’s a happy thought for Yes campaigners. They have already won the argument against the Union…the problem is they still haven’t convinced the Scots. It may be that this formulation of apparently contradictory effects is the reason the polls so far are stuck in neutral and a sense of gradual movement is hard to detect.

      Take the first part of the equation. Is there a rational person – as opposed to the determinedly committed – who still says Scotland can’t do it? It isn’t so long ago, in the pre devolution age, that a belief in Scotland’s almost total ineptitude was the conventional view. We were totally and hopelessly dependent – and weirdly untroubled by it – on the British Establishment whose agents we respected in the shape of a Scottish Office, often including unelected pantomime toffs – Lords Glenarthur, Mansfield, Sanderson or Strathclyde, anyone?

      Devolutionists were a rag tag of ne’er-do-wells and the disenfranchised fed up with opposition. As for the dangerous dreamers of the SNP…

      But since Scotland has demonstrated, rather than postulated a confident capacity to legislate in it’s own interests and move in a divergent direction, it is only flat-earth ears who say it can’t be done today. Largely unnoticed the UK official line has been changed by the facts and is now a completely different formulation that says: Of course Scotland can do it but is it worth it?

      That’s a completely different proposition based on reality. A binding agreement (on the face of it) is signed by the British state to guarantee that independence if there is a simple majority.

      All that is left to the No Change brigade is to show how devoid they are imagination, inspiration, belief and pride by running down Scotland’s prospects to make independence appear too risky. For me the proof that they are finished in terms of argument is two-fold. One, they are now reduced to hiding the truth. This comes in the form of allowing their leader to duck out of the one major head-to-head event of the entire three-year campaign which could have commanded total national attention and revealed the true divide between the sides…Cameron versus Salmond live on television across the United Kingdom.

      I still find it jaw-dropping that this has been dismissed as not being the role for the leader of the United Kingdom, a man who will fight tooth and nail for Union and whose sole political skill is presentational. Editors have allowed him to slip out of this in another demonstration of supine complicity by a media still exhibiting 1950s deference to the British state.

      I suspect this may become unsustainable though as the polls tighten and the London media which does have the balls to take on Downing Street starts to get frightened of the outcome. Backed by hysterical backbenchers, it is entirely possible that cowardly Cameron will be pleading for a pop at Salmond before voting day.

      Second, London’s refusal to take up Brussel’s invitation for clarification on the attitude the institutions will take and the approach we can expect to our membership is the kind of sleight of hand the same brave Scottish media would have lambasted Salmond for. They did after all make a mockery of Salmond not having asked about membership when the freedom of information row was filling their pages. But now when there is a clear course of action to enlighten the voters, they shrug with indifference.

      Taken together these two denials of openness and democratic choice, along with the unsubtle failure to be honest about currency union, demonstrate they have nothing to gain from revealing the truth while protesting it is Salmond who won’t give answers. That hypocritical ruse is their only cover left.

      While the uncritical media dutifully report the remarks of a self interest player in Spain, knowledgeable voices are getting through to offer clarity on the real story of EU membership, the latest the unrivalled EU expert John Palmer.

      Even the much vaunted, by Unionists, IFS figures confirmed that Scotland was in a better economic position than Britain and it is only looking years ahead and only if all British government estimates are accurate that a budgetary squeeze kicks in by which time Scotland can act to step up economic activity and head off demographic changes.

      I know many will believe the claims that Scotland still can’t make a success of independence but where are those arguments convincingly made? Increasingly it is the Alistairs who make wild assertions and unsubstantiated claims, not their opponents who now point to the Independence Bible to make their case in the knowledge the Nos have nothing to counter it with. Do you hear cogent arguments made by ordinary Scots apart from a weak and generalized: We’re probably better together?

      But why isn’t opinion turning? I think the problem is a large percentage of Scots who aren’t applying logic at all. It isn’t that they are following the detailed debate as such, it is that they have no concept of their country as anything other than what is has been throughout their lifetime, a part of Britain that used to be something special and with plenty of off-the-shelf history but not a place that could conceivably equal other countries.

      They see Scotland as not a country at all but the way it is seen from London, as a region with history and some differences but, like all subsidiary units, not an equal for the founding nation. It leads to disbelieving outbursts accompanied by furrowed foreheads about “Scotland…a nation. Don’t be ridiculous” sometimes followed with “I’ll emigrate if that happens”.

      They have been consumed by the British message and have allowed it to demolish what remained of their separate sense of national worth. It is the total success of Britishness which has supplanted their national identity, reduced it to a leisure activity (sport) and rendered them unable to envisage Scotland for what historically and legally it is, a nation like all others which merged in alliance with a bigger neighbour and now may want to rearrange that relationship to suit modern needs.

      They are not listening to the argument, as is their right, and they probably don’t listen at election time either preferring to believe nothing will change so why bother.

      I doubt if many people really do believe the argument that Scotland is better off in Britain, a point daily being dismantled by reports showing personal debt approaching 1.5 trillion – equalling sovereign debt. Families are borrowing to pay utility bills while bankers earn 35 per cent pay rises to 1.6m a year. The government subsidises mortgages for the rich and has to be stopped by the Bank of England before another bubble is created – guess where?

      But the No cohort doesn’t connect any of this to their own country or their own vote. It is something that happens to them and they can’t change. They won’t see either the desperate Tory and Lib Dem moves to begin campaigning for continued EU membership because the polls show a real possibility of the UK voting us out.

      Yes campaigners can argue all they like but I wonder how many of the Don’t Knows are actually Don’t Cares and Won’t Cares, people for whom there is no political message that gets through and for whom the idea of Scotland as their country is as relevant a flight to Mars.

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      Re: Scottish Referendum

      "While the uncritical media dutifully report the remarks of a self interest player in Spain, knowledgeable voices are getting through to offer clarity on the real story of EU membership, the latest the unrivalled EU expert John Palmer."

      If you define the constitutional Spanish Government in Madrid as a 'self interested player' then you are correct. However this self interested player (look at Gibraltar) can unilaterally block Scotland's membership of the EU/Euro to protect it's own regions. In my opinion and experience in Spain they will block any breakaway state within the EU.

      On the subject of a debate with Cameron I can't see the point. This is about Scottish independence and the Scottish nation should be persuaded by their politicians. If the SNP can gain 50.1% of the vote then they democratically deserve full independence. However the rest of the UK will then make its demands of its politicians. I'm not sure the SNP has taken any notice of the rest of the UK's population which may well react badly (or indeed like postulated about the majority of Scots show zero interest in the subject) but don't forget the power of the London based tabloid Press to whip up feelings in substantial portions of the population. Any negotiations about a breakaway state could be long and difficult which wouldn't be good for anyone.

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      Re: Scottish Referendum

      Huh? It wouldn't be England, it would be the United Kingdom of England, Wales and Northern Ireland.
      But Wales and Northern Ireland are not and never have been 'Kingdoms'. Wales at best was a Princedom and NI is what was left over when the Kingdom of Ireland left the old UK.

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    9. #17
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      Re: Scottish Referendum

      Quote Originally Posted by dms05 View Post
      ...However this self interested player (look at Gibraltar) can unilaterally block Scotland's membership of the EU/Euro to protect it's own regions. In my opinion and experience in Spain they will block any breakaway state within the EU.
      Spain has no right to protest about Gibraltar.

      A perfect example of Spain doing exactly the same, but with a larger area can be found in Ceuta.

      Ceuta - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

      The likes of Cameron do not get a vote in this referendum. It is purely for those who are living in Scotland, which does include people from Ireland, England and Wales, who are of the correct age to vote.

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    10. #18
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      Re: Scottish Referendum

      Quote Originally Posted by dms05 View Post
      "While the uncritical media dutifully report the remarks of a self interest player in Spain, knowledgeable voices are getting through to offer clarity on the real story of EU membership, the latest the unrivalled EU expert John Palmer."

      If you define the constitutional Spanish Government in Madrid as a 'self interested player' then you are correct. However this self interested player (look at Gibraltar) can unilaterally block Scotland's membership of the EU/Euro to protect it's own regions. In my opinion and experience in Spain they will block any breakaway state within the EU.

      On the subject of a debate with Cameron I can't see the point. This is about Scottish independence and the Scottish nation should be persuaded by their politicians. If the SNP can gain 50.1% of the vote then they democratically deserve full independence. However the rest of the UK will then make its demands of its politicians. I'm not sure the SNP has taken any notice of the rest of the UK's population which may well react badly (or indeed like postulated about the majority of Scots show zero interest in the subject) but don't forget the power of the London based tabloid Press to whip up feelings in substantial portions of the population. Any negotiations about a breakaway state could be long and difficult which wouldn't be good for anyone.
      On the subject of Cameron debating, we are asked to choose between becoming a country or remaining as a region within another country. The leader of the SNP is obviously willing to put his case, it is a bit odd that the people asking us to stick with the current government are those who oppose that same government and all they stand for.

      They argue "we're better together" and Yes Scotland then say "but you oppose this government and argue for a position that leaves us powerless to remove them". It's an unenviable position for the labour /tory/lib dem coalition in Scotland. Being in bed with the toxic tory brand is doing labour serious damage.

      And David Cameron said he would strain every sinew to defend the union (unless it involves going on TV).

      If it was to be left to Scots why has he sent a dreary procession of UK ministers to announce we'd be unable to drive our cars into England, we'd face mobile roaming charges, we'd be left to Al qaeda, we'd have our airports bombed by the English air force, we'd not be able to watch British TV, and we'd no longer be able to say British music was our music (all real messages delivered by ministers sent up from London).

      When you're trying to sell a concept or product you have to give a positive message, so far only one side has offered a positive message.

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      Re: Scottish Referendum

      This is something that kind of makes me laugh a little.

      Why does Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland always think that they are the oppressed nation?

      At least you are allowed to fly your own flags!

      Council in Devon bans cabbie from displaying small St George's flag sticker | Mail Online

      Cross country over England flag ban | The Sun |News

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      Muslim Rage?

      (I could go on with examples)

      For years various application forms would have options for Scottish, Welsh & Irish, but nothing for "English", we'd have to either pick "British" or write in English ourselves.

      I guess though that you do have a sensible party fighting for Scottish independence. Our so-called equivalents are a bunch or thugs or sexist dinosaurs.

      As for bombing your airports, I would find this hard to swallow. The people in the remaining UK would revolt against the government.

      The fun bit will be to do with imports and exports. Any taxation would need to be agreed upon and I can see the civil service slowing things down on purpose, as they often do.

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    12. #20
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      Who mentioned oppression? The case for yes is simply about decisions about Scotland being made by a government chosen by the people in Scotland. End of story.

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