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    Leaving Sky to VM

    This is a discussion on Leaving Sky to VM within the Sky Router forums, part of the Sky Broadband help category; It's also a 12 month contract. Although I have never used them so I cannot say if they are good, ...

    1. #11
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      Re: Leaving Sky to VM

      It's also a 12 month contract. Although I have never used them so I cannot say if they are good, bad or ugly.

      Personally, I cannot see how they can run it at that cost for aroung the 50Gb mark but I hope they do (they are owned by C&W).

      If I was leaving Sky Connect due to the poor speeds etc, I wouls want to go to someone who had at most a 3 month contract, that way I could move on again without kicking myself for the rest of the year.


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    3. #12
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      Re: Leaving Sky to VM

      i myself would rather stay with connect in the hope that LLU is enabled soon rather than jump ship and not be much better off in terms of usage and value for money.... though as you say if you can find a 3 month contract that may be of appeal..... Bit of a pain though having to keep changing

    4. #13
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      Re: Leaving Sky to VM

      Quote Originally Posted by Smithy99 View Post
      That is nonesense

      Sky may rent the equipment from BT but it's up to Sky how they implement it. The problem is that Sky's user base is using more capacity than Sky have purchased and so there are some major problems, especially at peak times.

      Sky could buy more capacity to resolve the problem but then it would start to make a loss on the Connect package. They could remove the heavy downloaders from the Connect package and free up more space for everyone else but they either do not have the facility to monitor usage or are unwilling to do this for some other reason.

      Either way, it is Sky's problem, not BT's. BT will not give away capacity to help Sky, they are one of their main competitors and why should they.

      There are many ISP's out there who do offer much better packages on the BT network but they are much more realistic in their pricing and you would be looking at around the 35 per month mark to get something that compares to the Sky Connect package for download limits etc.

      Try:

      Zen
      Plusnet (although they are owned by BT)
      IdNet

      Just for a start.
      Its not nonsense. CST cannot make any adjustments to your line if you are on Connect. All requests for line changes are sent to BT, BT make the changes, then tell us what is happening. Why? Because BT monitor the lines on Skys behalf.

      Maybe its true that if Sky rented more lines, it wouldn't be so bad on the traffic shaping, but Sky buy capacity as they need it i.e. when a customer joins, they buy the capacity. Other ISPs may buy capacity in blocks, so there is a bit of wiggle room, but Sky dont.

      But thats off topic. The point is that the Traffic shaping is automatic on BT systems, meaning that if any ISP were to be in the same situation as Sky, the BT systems would automatically implement the same traffic shaping on their lines, and they would have the same problems. The traffic shaping cannot be turned off.

    5. #14
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      Re: Leaving Sky to VM

      Demon avoid word unlimited but say "no formal usage restrictions " but hit 50GB in a 30 day window and you are at 80Kbps for 30 days (on all traffic)
      Re: PN Reps - some questions to answer please :: PlusNet plc :: think broadband




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    6. #15
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      Re: Leaving Sky to VM

      Quote Originally Posted by indefatigable View Post
      Its not nonsense. CST cannot make any adjustments to your line if you are on Connect. All requests for line changes are sent to BT, BT make the changes, then tell us what is happening. Why? Because BT monitor the lines on Skys behalf.
      Bt may monitor the lines and give Sky the information but it is Sky's choice whether to act on it, ie buy capacity if it is required. Sky buy the service off BT but they also have control over the amount of bandwidth they set aside for each user before they buy more.

      Quote Originally Posted by indefatigable View Post
      Maybe its true that if Sky rented more lines, it wouldn't be so bad on the traffic shaping, but Sky buy capacity as they need it i.e. when a customer joins, they buy the capacity. Other ISPs may buy capacity in blocks, so there is a bit of wiggle room, but Sky dont.
      No they don't, capacity comes in the shape of centrals, there are no options to just increase by a small amount per customer, they are (forgive me of my figures are a little out, it's been a while) if I remember right a pipe of 622 which can be split into 4 segments and each segment lit when required.

      Quote Originally Posted by indefatigable View Post
      But thats off topic. The point is that the Traffic shaping is automatic on BT systems, meaning that if any ISP were to be in the same situation as Sky, the BT systems would automatically implement the same traffic shaping on their lines, and they would have the same problems. The traffic shaping cannot be turned off.
      If Sky bought more capacity or reduced the users who are taking too much then they could get BT to lessen the amount of throttling they have to do to keep in the limits.

      Why do you think that ISP's such as Zen do not see the same amount of throttling on their lines, simple, they have more capacity to share around and so do not need the draconian methods that Sky are forced to impliment due to the LACK of capacity.

      Sky could fix this quite easily (but not cheaply) they choose not to, BT have no choice but to keep them within the limits of the capacity that Sky have purchased.

      The situation Sky are in is their doing, they have allowed it to get this bad, not BT. Many other ISP's are also in this situation but that does not lessen Skys involvement in the crippling speeds during peak time that their customers have to put up with.

      SKY ARE TO BLAME HERE
      Last edited by Smithy99; 21-02-09 at 10:27 PM. Reason: fixed quote tags

    7. #16
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      Re: Leaving Sky to VM

      About 12 months ago Sky had rented / bought / leased 11 Centrals for those on Connect. If Sky have filled those, that just shows how many customers are on Connect.

      From what I understand Sky used to use Ellacoyas to do the traffic shaping, whereas now I believe they use Cisco kit instead.

      The shaping is done by Sky and not BT - Its either Sky have too many customers on Connect or not enough Centrals to go around everyone, or that Sky have attracted those that download the internet, hence messing it up for legitimate broadband users.

      The other issue is how do Sky control it? From what I understand, Sky control the connection via your username and password hard coded into the router, and not by your line / telephone number. This was a huge mistake. If you are penalised for downloading the internet and are then rate limited via username and password, all you need to do is use another Sky router.




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    8. #17
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      Re: Leaving Sky to VM

      Well, i am going to disagree with you. I know you are only trying to help, but as far as i'm concerned, i've had an offical answer from several of the head honchos at Sky regarding this, so I'm sticking with it.

      We get calls every day where customers are affected by Traffic shaping on connect. I see cases that have gone through to CST where they have turned round and said that the issue is traffic shaping. Pretty much every CST agent is advising them that BT turned on the traffic shaping, and there is nothing that can be done.

      Some agents are giving customers a BT number to call to complain. All the high-ups are blaming BT for implementing the traffic shaping. Basically, the word around Sky is that BT are to blame.

      I appreciate that you have some info, but I am going to go with what my bosses tell me. i am going to go with what I have asked the bosses bosses to investigate, and the answer I received (from the head of broadband technical at Sky, yes, i have been that high up with this) is that BT started the traffic shaping a few months ago, and that they wont turn it off, no matter what we ask them to do. Nothing was ever mentioned regarding capacity of network.

      I can assure you, No Sky agent can turn traffic shaping off. No agent can adjust it. No agent can make someone exempt from the shaping.

      But i did hear an interesting thing the other day. Apparently, the systems are set up so that if you download more than 100Mb in a dshort period of time, your line gets permanently traffic shaped i.e. outside of peak times. I think that limit is a little low, considering you get 40Gb to play with.

    9. #18
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      Re: Leaving Sky to VM

      Quote Originally Posted by indefatigable View Post
      BT started the traffic shaping a few months ago, and that they wont turn it off, no matter what we ask them to do. Nothing was ever mentioned regarding capacity of network.

      I can assure you, No Sky agent can turn traffic shaping off. No agent can adjust it. No agent can make someone exempt from the shaping.
      I don't dispute that there is traffic shaping on the Connect package and it may be by BT, it doesn't really matter who is doing it. The reason why the traffic shaping is so harsh is that it has to work around the limited capacity to keep everything moving. The more capacity the lesss work the traffic shaping will have to do to try to keep a steady flow.

      I also agree that no agent can turn it off, I would imagine that nothing short of buying more capacity will improve the level of traffic shaping.

      I understand that you want to go with your bosses explination and he is not technically wrong, but next time ask him when was the last time they increased the capacity on the network inline with the increase in customer base. I think you will find that they haven't bought anymore in quite some time, hence the problems many more customers and no increase in capacity to allow for it

      I was trying to think of an analogy, the best I could come up with is:-

      Imagine a police officer standing at a single lane road junction directing traffic, when there is lots of it, he is forced to stop and start each lane to allow everyone to get through in a timley fashion. Now imagine the same amount of traffic again but on a three lane road, much easier, the traffic just fills the empty spaces and runs smoothly without the officer having to step in.

    10. #19
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      Re: Leaving Sky to VM

      All the high-ups are blaming BT for implementing the traffic shaping.
      This is wrong. BT could be implementing contention, which is a completely different thing. If Sky were packing people onto Connect like sardines in a can, then yes, BT would effectively be slowing traffic down by contention, or in simple words, everyone wanting to use the internet at the same time.

      You would expect a slow down in peak times, typically from say 4pm to 9pm every day as more people are using the internet. That would be contention or throughput available, ie a limited space and maximum traffic.

      Traffic shaping is different. That would mean that BT have to use DPI (Deep Packet Inspection) to slow types of traffic down, which I would guess would not be legal to do so for another ISP's traffic.

      Sky use DPI (or similar terms / technology) on their Cisco kit, which replaced their Ellacoyas. So effectively people on Connect are suffering from two things:

      • Traffic shaping by the ISP - Which is done by Sky and not BT
      • Contention, everyone using a limited tunnel so to speak at once, there is unavoidable hold ups as the traffic is waiting to go through. This would be what you could blame BT for. Which I guess is what the agents are saying. Although I have a feeling the terminology is incorrect on their screens / manager's briefings.


      Sky quite simply do not have the capacity on their Connect product, be it through contention or them not buying enough, and are therefore artificially lowering the speed limit via Traffic Shaping. So everyone is in effect being slowed down twice.




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