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    Router flashing not against T&c's?

    This is a discussion on Router flashing not against T&c's? within the Sky Router forums, part of the Sky Broadband help category; I was just wondering if someone could point out where it mentions not being able to use your own firmware ...

    1. #1
      the_sky_goat's Avatar
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      Router flashing not against T&c's?

      I was just wondering if someone could point out where it mentions not being able to use your own firmware on the Sky router.

      I had a trawl through the T&C's again this evening looking specifically for a mention of the Router and it's firmware. And the specific paragraphs are below:

      ---snip---
      3. The Broadband Box
      (a) As part of the Sky Broadband service SHS will supply one Broadband Box to you under
      this Contract.
      (b) You can choose to either install your Broadband Box yourself (“Self Install”) or have
      SHS install it for you (“Home Installation”). If you choose Self Install, SHS will send
      your Broadband Box to your Address and you must comply fully with all reasonable
      installation instructions and advice SHS provides to you. If you choose Home
      Installation you should read the terms and conditions for Home Installation (set out at
      the end of this Contract). You may have to pay for Home Installation. We will tell you
      the amount of this fee before charging you.
      (c) Your Broadband Box (except the software in it) will become your property on installation
      if you choose Home Installation, or on delivery if you choose Self Install. The software
      in your Broadband Box is owned by or licensed to SHS or another member of the
      British Sky Broadcasting group. You must allow this software to be updated. Updates
      will happen automatically at no extra charge.
      (d) Sky Broadband must only be accessed via your Broadband Box. Your Broadband Box
      is not supplied as being capable of being used to access any other Internet service.
      (e) Your Broadband Box is supplied with a warranty (“Warranty”) against faults arising in
      the first 12 months after supply.
      (f) The Warranty also covers cabling and, if you choose Home Installation, installation
      faults. The following are not covered by the Warranty: faults arising from misuse,
      accidental or deliberate damage to your Broadband Box; damage arising from use of
      equipment that is not supplied by or on behalf of SHS for use with your Broadband Box;
      cosmetic damage which does not affect the functionality of your Broadband Box;
      computer equipment, software and cables that we or SHS did not supply to you and
      damage caused by events outside the reasonable control of Sky, and that of SHS or its
      equipment suppliers.
      (g) To report a fault, please call us on 08705 515 515. If a reported fault cannot be
      remedied by one of our engineers over the phone, then SHS will either repair or replace
      your equipment, whichever is reasonably considered to be the most proportionate. Any
      equipment that is replaced must be returned to SHS in the manner SHS requests.
      (h) Any replacement equipment supplied under the Warranty will be new or ‘as new’
      (previously used equipment that has been refurbished by the manufacturer or its
      authorised agent). SHS will warrant any repair or replacement until the later of the end
      of the original 12 month warranty period or 3 months from the date it was carried out or
      supplied.
      (i) The Warranty does not apply outside the UK, Isle of Man and the Channel Islands. It
      does not affect your statutory rights. If you require any advice on your legal rights, you
      can refer to Consumer Direct.

      ---snip---So my reading of that is that we have to use the router they provide, which becomes our property upon delivery, and that the Software (firmware) on the router belongs to Sky.

      At no point does it say I have to use the Sky software (firmware) on the router.

      I can appreciate that there would be no technical support or warranty, but I don't see it being mentioned or implied anywhere that my service would be suspended if I choose to update the firmware on my router.

      I don't have the packaging from the router so perhaps they mention something additional in there?


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    3. #2
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      Re: Router flashing not against T&c's?

      You must allow this software to be updated.
      So if you do flash it to another FW you have broken this term explicitly, as Sky could no longer update the software.




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    4. #3
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      Re: Router flashing not against T&c's?

      I don't see it that way at all.

      It does not state explicitly that I have to use their software to connect to the service, nor that I may not use my own software on the box, simply that I must use the box.

      If they were serious about not changing the firmware then there should be an explicit mention of it in the terms.

      One could also argue that the software could be updated on a CD.

      Don't get me wrong, I couldn't care either way, and I'm not spoiling for a fight with Sky, I've flashed my router and am glad I did. If Sky phone me up after they finally drag their firmware out for general release I would happily re-flash to their updated version. I just think they have missed a trick on their T&C's.

      On a final note (before I get back in my box), I would honestly be quite concerned about an automatic flashing of firmware. The chances of something going wrong must be high, and the first thing you would know about it would be that your router was a brick...
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    5. #4
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      Re: Router flashing not against T&c's?

      Quote Originally Posted by the_sky_goat View Post
      On a final note (before I get back in my box), I would honestly be quite concerned about an automatic flashing of firmware. The chances of something going wrong must be high, and the first thing you would know about it would be that your router was a brick...
      Sky have been doing it for years with the digibox so it's seen as standard practice from their point of view.

      They've applied the same principles as teh digibox. In that you own the digibox, but sky own the software on it. Only difference is that the router has been 'cracked' 'hacked' where as the digibox hasn't.

      Not saying I agree or disagree with the practice. I'm not really fussed either way.

    6. #5
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      Re: Router flashing not against T&c's?

      I think these parts cover them-

      (c) Your Broadband Box (except the software in it)
      You must allow this software to be updated.
      (d) Sky Broadband must only be accessed via your Broadband Box
      I think it is obvious that Sky did not expect their software to be 'hacked', so thought it unnecessary to state specifically that you couldn't do a 'DIY' job on it yourself. From what I 'hear' they have covered themselves with the new firmware, which will not allow DIY flashing(yet)

      TomD


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    7. #6
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      Re: Router flashing not against T&c's?

      Well I agree but there is a world of difference between implied and explicit.
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    8. #7
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      Re: Router flashing not against T&c's?

      Quote Originally Posted by Isitme View Post
      I think it is obvious that Sky did not expect their software to be 'hacked', so thought it unnecessary to state specifically that you couldn't do a 'DIY' job on it yourself. From what I 'hear' they have covered themselves with the new firmware, which will not allow DIY flashing(yet)
      Not on the V1, the V2 will have to be doctored to allow it from what I hear.




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    9. #8
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      Re: Router flashing not against T&c's?

      ^^^^^^^
      I must have picked it up wrong, I thought I had read somewhere that Mognuts etc could not be made to work with the new firmware. so it could not be flashed. Obviously I'm wrong (again)
      Last edited by Isitme; 17-10-07 at 10:44 PM. Reason: Tried to be clearer

      TomD


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    10. #9
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      Re: Router flashing not against T&c's?

      Nope. I think you are right in the most.

      With the new FW for the V1, no utilities will work

      With the V2 no utilities will work or flashing possible at the moment of a non Sky FW

      The V1 can still be flashed back to the previous FW's as it can at the moment, thus making the no utilities point useless. Using the recovery process.

      The V2 from what we have heard, no utilities will work, and even if hacked or flashed to a different FW will lose the Username and Password, rendering it useless anyway.




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    11. #10
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      Re: Router flashing not against T&c's?

      So will a firmware upgrade give you a new username and password, or will it still be possible to use a different router after an upgrade, provided of course that one has first extracted the details?

     

     
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