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    Stop Press - New FW - Stop Press

    This is a discussion on Stop Press - New FW - Stop Press within the Sky news and announcements forums, part of the SkyUser Announcements category; Originally Posted by James67 The software is only licensed if Sky complies with the terms of that licence, which amongst ...

    1. #71
      Netgeezer's Avatar
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      Re: Stop Press - New FW - Stop Press

      Quote Originally Posted by James67 View Post
      The software is only licensed if Sky complies with the terms of that licence, which amongst other things require Sky to provide end-users with a copy of those licence terms (so that they are aware of their rights), to make the source code available, and to permit end-users to modify their software..
      Citation please. I remain to be convinced that Netgear firmware is open source and that the terms of the licence to Sky require them [Sky] to do all that. Quite happy to be corrected, but a citation would be a bit more convincing
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    3. #72
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      Re: Stop Press - New FW - Stop Press

      Quote Originally Posted by Netgeezer View Post
      I remain to be convinced that Netgear firmware is open source
      Really, you shouldn't be taking part in any kind of argument about software licensing if you're going to say things like that. But to clear up any confusion about the subject…

      • Download the software kit for the Sky DG834GT router, version 1.02.28. You can find that on Netgear's FTP server.

      • Unpack the software kit. The kit is delivered as a bzip2'd tar file. I have no idea what programs are available for Windows for unpacking such files, but on Linux you can do this using the following command…
        Code:
        tar xjf DG834GT-1SKUKS.V1.02.28_src.tar.bz2
      • Have a look at the following files:

        • README
        • linux/COPYING
        • apps/dnrd-2.19.1/COPYING
        • apps/dnrd-2.19.1/COPYING
        • apps/rp-pppoe-3.5/doc/LICENSE
        • apps/ez-ipupdate-3.0.11b8/COPYING
        • apps/udhcp-0.9.7/COPYING
        • apps/reaim-0.8/LICENSE
        • apps/bridge-utils-0.9.5/COPYING
        • apps/utelnetd-0.1.2/LICENSE
        • apps/nbtscan-1.5.1a/COPYING
        • apps/iptables-1.2.8/COPYING
        • apps/busybox-1.00/networking/udhcp/COPYING
        • apps/busybox-1.00/LICENSE
        • apps/wireless_tools.26/COPYING
        • apps/linux-atm-2.4.0/COPYING.LGPL
        • apps/linux-atm-2.4.0/COPYING.GPL
        • uClibc-0.9.28/libpthread/linuxthreads/LICENSE
        • uClibc-0.9.28/README
        • uClibc-0.9.28/COPYING.LIB


      Clearly, Netgear have complied with the licensing terms by making this software kit available, although they have yet to do the same for the V1.03.87 firmware.

      By contrast, Sky are claiming that those parts of the firmware which it doesn't own, are licensed to it, but for that claim to be valid, Sky has to adhere to the terms and conditions of that licence. In particular, I would draw your attention to section 3 in the GPL.

    4. #73
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      Re: Stop Press - New FW - Stop Press

      Quote Originally Posted by James67 View Post
      Really, you shouldn't be taking part in any kind of argument about software licensing if you're going to say things like that. But to clear up any confusion about the subjectů
      Now, now, be nice You do know (?) that if you're going to make strong claims about things like licensing then a citation is vital to support the point you're making. And to be fair, I did quite honestly say
      Quite happy to be corrected, but a citation would be a bit more convincing
      .... which I think is quite a reasonable position to comment from.

      Now in considering your comment about Sky's Ts&Cs - they will want to protect their own IP, hence those clauses are generic across the entire contract. It may be unreasonable to be required to write Ts&Cs for every specific nut, bolt and widget that they supply.

      That Netgear have published the source under GPL is interesting - there is a whole open source Linksys firmware about, although it is a bit crappy - and there is no timing requirement for such publication. So maybe your impatience is getting to you, and that the new code will eventually make it to Netgear's FTP server. It is, after all, Netgear's codebase.

      You'll get your sticky paws on it soon enough, just not necessarily in your timescales.
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    5. #74
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      Re: Stop Press - New FW - Stop Press

      Quote Originally Posted by Netgeezer View Post
      That Netgear have published the source under GPL is interesting - there is a whole open source Linksys firmware about, although it is a bit crappy - and there is no timing requirement for such publication.
      I still don't think you're getting this. It's not Netgear who have chosen to release the source code under GPL, it's the original authors of that code, people like Linus Torvalds, Alan Cox, and many, many others. There are only a few little pieces of code which were written by Netgear, all the rest were written by people with absolutely no connection to Netgear or Sky, and who released it under GPL so that others, such as Netgear, can modify and incorporate it into their own hardware products. But under the terms of the licence which enable Netgear to do that, Netgear, in turn, have to make the source code available to their end-users and allow them to modify it if they wish.

    6. #75
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      Re: Stop Press - New FW - Stop Press

      Perhaps I'm expressing it wrong - I understand what Netgear have done and how. But as Sky have bought and badged the router from Netgear I still do not see why the angst that Sky themselves have not published the source code when Netgear, the manufacturer, have (or will in due course) as they also have with the original version that went into production use. Thats all really.
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    7. #76
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      Re: Stop Press - New FW - Stop Press

      Quote Originally Posted by Netgeezer View Post
      Perhaps I'm expressing it wrong - I understand what Netgear have done and how. But as Sky have bought and badged the router from Netgear I still do not see why the angst that Sky themselves have not published the source code when Netgear, the manufacturer, have (or will in due course) as they also have with the original version that went into production use. Thats all really.
      It's not about angst, it's about law. Sky, or Netgear at Sky's request, have modified GPL-licensed code. They are obliged under the GPL terms to release the code, along with any modifications that they make, into the public domain. Should they not do so, then the original writers of the code have grounds for legal recourse against Sky and/or Netgear for violating their IP.

      Admittedly, I don't know the GPL licence terms off by heart, nor am I inclined to scour through them right now, but as far as I am aware, it's also against GPL terms to release a binary without releasing the source at the same time (or beforehand), i.e. they can't release the firmware and sit on the source code for twelve months. If anyone knows otherwise, please enlighten me.

      As James67 has pointed out, it appears that Sky have in their own terms and conditions made claims on rights which they do not have. I'm sure that this is just an oversight, but it's a very sloppy one. However, if Sky would rather keep their code modifications private, the fact is that they should not have chosen a router which uses GPL-licensed, open source code as the basis for its firmware.

    8. #77
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      Re: Stop Press - New FW - Stop Press

      Ah, but then the requirement to publish [surely] falls upon Netgear and not Sky. In any event it is not Sky's code to publish. They merely contracted Netgear - and without knowing the terms of that contract - it is unlikely that Sky actually own any rights to the firmware other than, perhaps, copyrighted material such as images.

      I'm no GPL lawyer myself, although I do appreciate [if not fully understand] the underlying aspects of it.

      Sky's own "sloppy" terms and conditions are generic across their entire product range. However, sloppy or not, the legitimate and legal override to those would be the GPL, so no harm done really. There are plenty of GPL ownership precedents already well established - didn't SCO get caught with their trousers down as they tried to get all stroppy with the Unix/Linux community claiming rights to everything and anything!

      I'm of the opinion that, under GPL, James could very well hack the Sky firmware to his heart's content without risk. And if anyone representing Sky did knock on the door that he would be well protected - providing he is not violating any of their copyrights. That would be the big no-no. So maybe in any James version of the code he'd have to remove all the Sky imagery.
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    9. #78
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      Re: Stop Press - New FW - Stop Press

      So maybe in any James version of the code he'd have to remove all the Sky imagery.
      There is no Sky imagery in the new FW for the V1 - that's the next step I would have assumed.


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    10. #79
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      Re: Stop Press - New FW - Stop Press

      still watinig ;[
      I speak Russian / English / Lithuanian


    11. #80
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      Re: Stop Press - New FW - Stop Press

      Quote Originally Posted by NewsreadeR View Post
      There is no Sky imagery in the new FW for the V1 - that's the next step I would have assumed.
      So the new router firmware doesnt give the fancy router layout like the new routers have?

      and i dont recon sky are going to give us the firmware to at least next week now

     

     
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