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    Rein issue

    This is a discussion on Rein issue within the Sky Broadband help forums, part of the Sky Broadband help and support category; The tv is never used in the mornings by me as I work nightshift and don't get home till 10am ...

    1. #31
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      Re: Rein issue

      The tv is never used in the mornings by me as I work nightshift and don't get home till 10am

      I know the other half does not use the tv in the morning before going to work but uses hair straighteners

      As for the phone it is never used unless phoning sky cst
      as for the 3pm thing is that not the router dropping connection
      The graph I will post today will be interesting there is no one In My flat for 15 hours at least with everything turned of so come 10am I will have been the only person in


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    3. #32
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      Re: Rein issue

      Rein issue-noisemargin-2013aug31-1120.jpg
      this was with no one in house and all devices turned of
      also phone was unplugged and i was in the test socket

    4. #33
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      Re: Rein issue

      Quote Originally Posted by andy585 View Post
      Click image for larger version. 

Name:	NoiseMargin-2013Aug31-1120.jpg 
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      this was with no one in house and all devices turned of
      also phone was unplugged and i was in the test socket
      Brilliant, 8am again I see - but you don't come in until 10am. Nice. No-one in the house and nothing on, that narrows it down a lot, so basically only things like water heating or anything on a timeclock (TV/Sat recordings maybe?) - often the things you forget about.
      (it's summer, but in winter there are many more on/offs of heaters, radiators etc)
      OR could be outside your home - nearby homes, or BT/Openreach problem. Things are gradually getting ticked off the list, we just have to be careful it's thorough and conclusive or it can get confusing. So, some more specific questions....


      Questions:-

      1- Can you confirm what happened at 9pm Friday or just after Were you definitely out then? Was that you plugging direct into test socket then or pulling fones out to do a test just as you left? Or is that another unexplained glitch? 15 hours out the house you say, so 10am back in is 7pm/8pm leaving - correct?

      2- Do you have Gas Water/Central Heating? or Electric immersion heater?

      3- (strange question) Have you, in the last 10 days or so, telephoned Sky CST and asked them to do anything to the line, like set new profiles, or have they "adjusted" anything that you know of "to help".



      About question 2, both gas and electric water heaters can cause noise (electric sparks are very noisy radio transmitters, the electric thermostat can cause noise in gas or electric heaters when it switches.
      Even the gas flame plume itself can cause static pops, though not normally enought affect broadband, but it can be noisy on radio reception. The burner shroud is often securely earthed to prevent this interference, as a gas service person will tell you. They usually say "thats just for radio interference" and then they just shrug - radio interference is a specialist field rather than a day-day thing)

      About question 3, certain things the ISP do may make your line a bit more jumpy for up to 10 days, so glitches themselves may just be regular-resyncs during a 10-day period.
      Not all ISPs are like that, depend on their equipment and policies, not sure about sky. Some ISPs often don't bother to tell customers they have adjusted something you see, most people won;t notice anyways, but when you are plotting constantly on a graph, you may be chasing ghosts during a period of re-adjustment, so the interference could be longer-lasting or more constant than the observed glitches.


      Hair straighteners may have internal thermal control that's creating noise one they are up to temperature, but if they weren't on at 8am Saturday, couldn't be them. If not used in combo with hair dryer, then that narrows it down a bit to one item rather than two. It looks quite and good all night. That sometimes indicates it's a daytime thing like a domestic appliance, or a household thing as I see a simple pattern emerging of mornings (certainly) and afternoon/evenings. Good overnight suggests more strongly human or domestic/house stuff.

      But you never know, could be dodgy cable or joint in the street or cabinet that's affected by traffic rumbling past or birds flapping. Fascinating and annoying Also, when it's not your own broadband affected, it's very addictive finding faults like this.

      These is the classic elimination approach. The good news is if it does turn out to be a dodgy domestic appliance, you find out before it becomes dangerous, especially if it's something handheld that's sparking
      Could also be your neighbours, but much easier to rule out all of your stuff. Anything electrical is a suspect, basically, even on standby. The plots give excellent info, something has happened at XXhXXm, which usually means something was turned on, turned off, or happened automatically, timer or otherwise.

      Good info, going well, thanks for feedback. If we don't find anything wrong with you house/appliances, that's good news! Not bad, so try not to get frustrated, this is very good progress so far. The Plasma TV is (surprisingly) off the hook for now, UNLESS of course you set a timed recording or similar on a device that's plugged into, or built into, the plasma TV or communal TV system around 9pm-ish or 8am-ish onwards.
      Last edited by gord.s; 31-08-13 at 02:48 PM. Reason: s/central\ heating/Water\/Centra\l Heating/

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    6. #34
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      Re: Rein issue

      you said
      "As for the phone it is never used unless phoning sky cst
      as for the 3pm thing is that not the router dropping connection "

      could be a big clue - broadband affected by calls in/out - could well be line/filter/phones problem - nearly missed it as it was in your 2am post just before the 15-hour-plot one. Answer the above 3 question though. Could be combination of several things you see.

    7. #35
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      Re: Rein issue

      Have you asked any of your neighbours to run Routerstats yet? As I have said that could help show whether the problem is widespread or confined to your property. The severe drops at around 8, am and pm could be a faulty street light.

      TomD


      Please note the views and recommendations in my posts are my own and in no way reflect the views of SkyUser.


      Useful Utilites

      http://www.nirsoft.net/utils/wifi_information_view.html/ TCPOptimiser /Test Socket

      Note - When downloading always select the Custom install or you will end up with stuff you don't want.





    8. #36
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      Re: Rein issue

      Quote Originally Posted by Isitme View Post
      Have you asked any of your neighbours to run Routerstats yet? As I have said that could help show whether the problem is widespread or confined to your property. The severe drops at around 8, am and pm could be a faulty street light.
      problem with getting neighbours involved in advanced logging is if it turns out to be Andy's Plasma TV waking up from standby and polluting the communal system, or something else in his house on a timer, the neighbours are gonna be around with picthforks and lumphammers

      Yeah streetlights can be rather noisy. A particular problem is they are long and metal, so can act like a antenna, even though they are nicely earthed at the bottom (just as some antenna are) I've seen a few lamp standards affect VDSL, especially the higher frequencies, because of this, particularly when the telephone lead-in/drop wire is close and vertically oriented/polarised as well.

      8am is a bit late at this time of year day for a turnoff, though (I'm assuming) it's West coast Scotland not "darn sarf" in London, so that affects the timings of dawn/dusk a lot. Things like overhanging trees, muck or a shaded location like the west or north of a building all affect opto-switching sensor in the morning. It could also be on a fixed timer, which is more likely in a housing association or block of flats situation. Could even be an interior light, especially if a flourescent or CFL (or many of them switching together). Could be either the lamp side or the timer relay on the bus-bar at the CU end is arcing.

      Other similar things are electric door strikes for outer lobby doors, they often lock on a timer so tramps and drunks don't wander in, but are open for convenience during the daytime.

      All that doesn't explain the the 3pm-ish glitches around time he was on the phone to sky customer services though, which suggests filter, line or phones fault. (the 8am and 8pm glicthes could be incoming phone calls that went unanswered for example. The way to test for that is ring the landline from a mobile while plotting the SNR on Routerstats. A positive corellation there usually means one of the three, so that's maybe a good test next.

      Other similar things are electric door strikes for outer lobby doors, they often lock on a timer so tramps and drunks don't wander in, but are open for convenience during the daytime.

      It's handy to have RouterStats or similar running even when the line is performing well, as then you have known-good comparisons to make a baseline. On some lines I cat my adslctl status to a file every hour on a cron job, similar info but in text form. I also run a Copper Line Test every month (during site downtime) whether I need it or not, that does 2 things - gives me reassurance that no recognisable fault runs for more than more than 1 month unnoticed and proves the modem will restart and PPP establish in the event of line drop or power fail exceeding the modem+router's UPS runtime.

      There's actually a heck of a lot you can do on some ISP LNSs. I plot min/max/average latency, LCP pings, packet loss, and 3 sets of latency-vs-traffic (min/max/avg) though that's mainly for VoIP purposes.
      If you don't have that functionality at your ISP you can run Smokeping or MTR and log the output to a file.
      With info like that being logged all the time it's easy to see when problems appear and that's often before you are affected by them so you can take action.

    9. #37
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      Re: Rein issue

      The 9pm thing was me connecting in to the test socket sorry

      I have gas central heating

      And I phoned cst and while booking an OR engineer he tryed a few things which I think included changing my SNR

      I will check the street lamps as one is right outside my block of flats and not so far from a BT duct

    10. #38
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      Re: Rein issue

      Quote Originally Posted by andy585 View Post
      The 9pm thing was me connecting in to the test socket sorry
      I have gas central heating
      And I phoned cst and while booking an OR engineer he tryed a few things which I think included changing my SNR
      I will check the street lamps as one is right outside my block of flats and not so far from a BT duct

      okey doke, 9pm plugin to test skt - that's fine. So, the 8am glitches are mystery, the 3pm one was a fone call, the 9pm was test socket plugin

      Gas CH - could you just check the timeclock on it for me - is the water set to heat up or heating set to come on at 8am every day or thereabouts?
      That wouldn't explain your 10am-ish ones in the early stages of the thread, unless you changed them or maybe had a bath/washed dishes, though you did mention that yesterday (Saturday) you got home at 10am, wonder if a week ago approx you came home at the same time, probably too long ago to remember

      In that case, the SNR might be a little up/down, depending on how Sky do things (I'm with A&A myself, their 21CN lines do have a management period (so there'll be a few ups/downs after a change), their TalkTalk wholesale backhaul ones don't


      I still don't know what I'd do, with the info so far. Earlier in the thread (if I'd been around then) I'd have said mains or communal amp system (maybe aggravated by a noisy plasma one one end of it or close by), but I'm leaning towards filter/line/phone for now still. With the long overnight test-socket RSL plot, the 8am when the house was unoccupied is the only mystery (i think? unless I've missed something). So for that event, it could have been an unanswered incoming call around then upsetting the line due to fault, imbalance or faulty phone (though the phones and house wiring, in theory, would have been disconnected by the test-socket method - but that assumes there is no dodgy phone wiring into the *back* of the NTE5 wallbox from a previous occupier or tradesman).

      Yeah, uncertain as yet. I don't like the look of the OR DP next to the mains box, but it's only running parallel for half a meter max, there are no turns of coupling loops I can see, only the metal box (good for shielding) close to it, the close cables are armored cables. Safety is OK, EMC-wise not good but not alarmingly bad, as has been said before I arrived. I see no problem there unless the A or B of your pair are leaking to earth (via waterlogged cable for example) An electrician's Earth ("terra") isn't earth at radio frequencies, due to inductance or interfering currents in the ground due to bad ground conductivity and potential gradients. The higher in frequency you go, the more this sort of Terra-earth-but-not-an-RF-earth is a problem. At 50hz mains, it's (almost) no problem at all. Investigation-wise, going down the mains route, either costs you or kills you So don't even think of calling a sparky in yet

      Maybe you could try some ring-in tests. With only the modem in the test socket, no phones or house wiring, ring your own landline number from your mobile (while plotting with RSL of course) If they show glitches, you should adjust the plot timing to "zoom in" for a 10-20 minutes run, ringing youself every 5 mins (no sooner, give modem time to resync, settle and plot a line again) - if the glitches are exactly every 5 mins, then that would confirm it's the line, because the internal wiring and filters are ruled out.

      If you have a spare modem (that will allow RSL plots) you may with to look it out and make it ready (but don't swap it yet!) That's just in case it's the modem. Always a very slight chance it's the modem, but almost certainly the line if ringing in glitches that much in test socket.



      Just a little warning - when you say "test socket", you are using the one you on the see lower right of the backplate when you remove both the lower-half-faceplate and the interstitial VDSL filter? (you mentioned you had a "VDSL faceplate" on) and you're not accidentally using the top VDSL socket instead? That would normally be OK, because that socket is "straight through" for ADSL/VDSL frequencies BUT if the filter is still on, a potentially glitchy filter is still physically attached to the line (but only serving the voice ports). It's still hooked onto the line though inside - be careful of that, this is only possible recently with the new VDSL filters so it's a recent change - a RJ11 also fits in the top VDSL port, but that's not the test socket either remember. The test socket is visible only with the lower-half-faceplate and the interstitial "VDSL faceplate" removed.
      It doesn't help that ebay sellers flog the flippin VDSL interstitial as a "VDSL Faceplate", when it isn't! GRRR!

      EDIT: here's what I mean, easy to get it wrong with the new VDSL ones -
      http://www.coolwebhome.co.uk/faceplate/

      I had one like that at Christmas, they swore blind they were into the test socket, but they had just unplugged the living room phone, removing 100metres+ of bad in-house customer cabling but still leaving a glitchy VDSL filter still left in place. In that case, it was the VDSL filter that was shot, maybe by lightning damage.
      A proper test onto the test socket only showed a massive speed increase, and no glitches. The wiring got done as well to do a proper job, everyone happy. I expect to see more of these (understandable) mistakes as more people get the new VDSL faceplates as time goes on.
      Last edited by gord.s; 01-09-13 at 06:46 AM. Reason: Posted link to piccies of test socket just in case to clarify

    11. #39
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      Re: Rein issue

      Just to update REIN team have been booked to come out will update with results

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      Re: Rein issue

      okey doke, I assume they sent a "normal" ADSL guy first to give it all the once over? There are two level of Special Fault Investigation, SFI1 and SFI2, so brace yourself for a couple of visits if the first guy doesn't sort it for you

      I'd love to know what it is, chewing my fingernail here haha

     

     
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