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    Rein issue

    This is a discussion on Rein issue within the Sky Broadband help forums, part of the Sky Broadband help and support category; I have sent you the file. I think that may be the Sagem2304n that you have, I don't think there ...

    1. #21
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      Re: Rein issue

      I have sent you the file. I think that may be the Sagem2304n that you have, I don't think there is anything available for it apart from the official firmware.

      TomD


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      Re: Rein issue

      i do have a fast2504 here but it was my sisters and think its blocked as it does not connect to internet could this be hacked and used to gain more statistics ???

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      Re: Rein issue

      Rein issue-bad-rein-upstream.jpg

      now with upload graph

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      Re: Rein issue

      Quote Originally Posted by andy585 View Post
      i do have a fast2504 here but it was my sisters and think its blocked as it does not connect to internet could this be hacked and used to gain more statistics ???
      If it is the Sagem 2504 G version then it can be flashed with Sagem firmware. If it is the N version, it can be flashed with the Custom Firmware by MRMT which you can find here - Custom Firmware for Sagemcom 2504N (Based on Sky 6.14.2a4N_UNI)

      Instructions for the G version can be found here in post 22- Sagem F@ST 2504

      Both of these give access to the full system settings.

      TomD


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      Re: Rein issue

      had a chat with another resident and found out the amplifer/multi switch is the problem he had his replaced at the cost of 300 split 4 ways rein gone from his line

      fingers crossed thats what is my problem

    7. #26
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      Re: Rein issue

      hi Andy, you called into #A&A today and we had a chat, but you presumably had your line dropped again :(
      I did a bit of sleuth work and luckily found your same nick on here so have a lot more info reading this thread.

      I see you have RouterStats plots posted here which are great as they show problems in the time domain. It's also likely that the router can handle DMTtool, as it uses the same method to gather data.

      looking at this:-
      http://www.skyuser.co.uk/forum/attac...n-upstream.jpg

      You have a bad glitch in the noise margins there, though you also have nice straight-line problem free periods in other plots you've posted.

      Looking at the shape of that plot, I'd first try a new microfilter, *especially* if that glitch in the graph coincided with an incoming or outgoing fone call on the PSTN line.


      If you have several microfilters around the house, I'd strongly recommend a central faceplate one. If you already have a faceplate one, it may need changed to rule it out.
      I don't, from the RouterStats plots anyways, think you have an interference/EMC ("REIN") problem all the time, though you may have a faulty copper line somewhere.

      Note that many engineers will claim it's a REIN problem if they can't find a physical fault. Electromagnetic Compatibility (as REIN is actually called by most professions) is quite a complicated subject and is well into the "hmm, ive tried all the usual stuff so I'm out of ideas" -area) It's not the fault of the engineers, it needs a lot of experience and and there are thousands of possibilities for EMC problems that the normal engineers don;t have time or equipment to test for. You also either have a "nose for it" or not :) After 20+ years of it I can safely say that it's more a calling than a trade haha.

      So,
      An extensive test at the NTE5 test socket (24 hours or so) would rule out microfilter faults, as there will be only the modem and the line, no filter at all.
      The problem is of course that doing a 24 hour test you can;t use your house phones :)
      The long test is needed to completely prove or disprove the "glitch" being caused by a faulty filter.

      All DSL filters age over time, usually a capacitor gives up and "punches through" although it's possible that there's a dry solder joint or maybe some other physical fault within it.
      Better quality filters have active components like transistors. These give better cuttoffs and hence better performance but are much more prone to spikes and lightning damage over time than the cheaper and less "brick-wall" filter plot of passive filters.

      I'd also try putting microfilters on every telephone device around the house, it's possible that you have a rogue phone or something plugged in that is causing glitches. Microfilters are straight-through for ADSL so they have no effect on broadband speed, so adding one to every phone device causes no extra problems in general (there are rare line/wiring faults where this may cause a bit of a problem but it's easy remedied by removing the extra filters one by one.

      Just some general thoughts:-


      • Faceplate filters seem to last longer before going faulty. No idea why, but it's all we use now here.
      • .
      • All filters are prone top going faulty - they don't last forever.
      • .
      • Filters are straight-through for the DSL signals, the filtering is merely on the telephone voice side, but that doesn't mean they can't have a bad contact in their plug/socket
      • .


      • Sky boxes (the sat boxes) or similar devices can be very noisy on the internal wiring, fit one or two microfilters to them in cascade is you suspect a problem there.
      • .


      • Adding exra filter around the house on all fones/boxes does no harm to broadband (radio hams often do this if their telephones are prone to voice-frequency interference, works quite well)
      • .


      • RF3 filter is always nice - better to get Openreach to fit one (they will is they suspect common-mode pickup) though in theory you could fit one yourself - not legal but if you know exactly what you are doing and are confident that you won't introduce extra faults(!) it's worth a try.
      • .


      • Communal TV or Sat systems have long runs of cables that make a great big distributed interference antenna, as I mentioned on IRC
      • .
      • Homeplug (ethernet over powerline) can cause rather difficult-to-locate problems if the signal couples into the telephone line. This can be a constant problem or only when traffic is being passed. Wifi does not (normally) cause the same problems.. ..but.....
      • Some PSUs can cause significant interference that is carried around the mains wiring. This is usually a constant 24/7 problem, though in theory could be only when the device they are powering is actually in use. Heavier/bulkier old-fasioned transformer-linear regulator supplied are quieter than compact switch mode PSUs in this respect. Try re-arranging the equipment so only the broadband modem/router is plugged in near the NTE5, The further away the rest of the PSU and equipment is, the better.
      • .
      • Plasma TV can cause huge amounts of radio interference, this can get muicyh worse as they age and the circuits turn up the drive to maintain contrast and gamma as the TV ages. Keep them well away or avoid buying them altogether.
      • .
      • A mains radio-frequency-interference filter adapter, plugged into the all where the modem/router/skyhub is fed from can reduce mains-bourne interference in some cases. Some multi-way adapter strips have one included. The surge protection is not RFI filtering, the two are different things. 20 will buy you a reasonable one in a 4 or 6-way socket housing. Don't be tempted to plug everything into it, separate the modem PSU from everything else in the room for best results, so in theory a single-plug RFI filter can be used. Buying a 2m-etre 4-way extension, laying it away from the modem/router/skyhub and NTE5 then plugging the "rest" of your living room kit into it is better than nothing if you can't physically separate the TV/other PSUs, hifi, homeplug etc. Note that a interference filter will not help homeplug speeds at all. Cat5 or cat6 network wiring is what real networks are made of, not noisy compromises ;)
      • .
      • On a similar subject, Cat5e wiring makes excellent internal telephone wiring - the high number of twists-per-meter help with local interference issues. Be sure to observe "pairings" (the Cat5e will have pairs of colours, don'#t mix/match your own colour scheme!)
      • .
      • Keep your modem wiring tidy. Avoid using 20 metre cables if a shorter one would do. Coil spare length up neatly, but away from other items like PSUs, or you are making a nice transformer coil for picking up interference! Physical separation is best if you can do it. A dedicated mains socket close to the NTE5 is the best idea, only modem/router/skyhub fed from it. If you have a old CRT or plasma TV, keep your mains (and video/audio/speaker) cables and modem/router/skyhub away from that too. Interference can hop between cables, especially where they are parallel or if they are looped close together, especially in the same geometric plane - 90degree crossing is better ("orthogonal" is the correct engineering word lol) Electromagnetic fields are your enemy where EMC is concerned. You only want the ADSL signal (and voice, to be strictly correct) on the modem line, not any other rubbish as well.


      • .
      • You may simply have a bad joint or break or water penetration somewhere up the road or at the cabinet - so don't go nuts buying loads of new equipment unless you definitely have room for reliability/quality improvement!
      • .


      • *Don't* overlook the possibility of a faulty PSTN phone causing the glitches, especially if you bought it for under a tenner. Like filters, they don't last forever (old rotary dial phones are the possible exception haha)



      Interference faults are very hard to find unless they are continuous and you have the right kit and experience. Your plots strongly suggest infrequent glitches rather than interference, as a rule, so I strongly suspect either a line fault (maybe a dodgy joint somewhere, or possible crosstalk issues in a waterlogged bundle) or (just as common) a filter problem.

      A day-long test with modem directly into the test socket will rule out the filter, but becuase that's a pain if you need the house fones, the best way would be to keep shoving microfilters on every phone until you see some improvement. It help to keep every brand-knew microfilter you can get your hands on for such testing occasions, though even an old second-hand one is better than nothing if you are adding them to everything in desperation like this. I label all my "known good" ones and if they have been in service for 2 days or more treat them as used. This is because, especially on rural overhead lines, I don't want a broken microfilter skewing my thought process. Ask around your mates, sometimes they have spares still in the plastic wrappers, those are the best ones to trust.

      Beware of cheap filters from Asia or the US on ebay- they don't necessarily meet the UK impedance requirements which is more important for some RFI+fault scenarios. UK sourced ones especially those provided by your ISP are the best microfilters from a hassle&trust point of view. I always have a spare faceplate filter in stock, if your broadband service is important for work use I suggest you buy them as pairs too. Always label them with the in-service date the same day you fit them so you have some idea how old they are - that gives a rough idea of their expected service life. They should cost about a tenner or so for a good one. The new FTTC faceplates (with built-in filter and a jack at the top) are rather good on long noisy lines too.

      It sounds like Sky are going down the SFI route for you - that's good (some ISPs are very reluctant and hope the problem will go away in time ) *But* still double check everything before they come, just in case it costs you if they don't find a line fault.

      If all else fails, you could try a specialist ISP that will have lots of CQM graph data to prove to BTOR that there's a line problem (assuming the filters are proven OK by swapping for new ones). Any ISP that uses a Firebrick as an LNS, for example, will have excellent LCP graphs of packet loss and other metrics; they can also be customized by the customer to a high level on some ISP's control pages

      This is a Sky forum so I'm reluctant to start gobbing off about the merits of other ISPs, but please keep in touch by dropping into #A&A by the web IRC page if you don't get it fixed or identified. Someone will usually be able to help you in there most times of the day, though it can get slow in the late evenings and during the night. The A&A staff themselves can't help as you're not one of their customers, but as substantial proportion of A&A's customers are there precisely because they have bad BTOR line problems so there's a fair bit of experience in there. Most of us are more than happy to help if we have free time, so post your problem and stay logged in for an hour or so to maximise the chance of a reply. It gets busy during the day with office traffic, but evenings are quieter if you can stand the humour ;)

      Best of luck with SFI - stay in touch if you have further problems, on IRC #A&A or here, I've just registered to post this but I'll try and check in again here in the next few days if I remember.
      regards,

      Gord ( gord from #A&A on irc.z.je )

      phew, sore fingers now :)
      Last edited by gord.s; 29-08-13 at 08:22 PM. Reason: some major typos and clarification v2

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      Re: Rein issue

      Gord thanks for the info I have the newer faceplate fitted with the adsl connector at the top I am running a 20hour router stats graph as I type and will also run a test socket one aswell and post them here and other site and keep in touch as OR engineer has been booked for Wed

      The part about the communal system acting as an amplifier how would this be prevented I know the flats were built in 2005 could it be the coaxial cable is not to current spec and causing the problems ??

    9. #28
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      Re: Rein issue

      Quote Originally Posted by andy585 View Post
      The part about the communal system acting as an amplifier how would this be prevented I know the flats were built in 2005 could it be the coaxial cable is not to current spec and causing the problems ??
      ah, it's not an amplifier of interference (though it should, quite correctly, be an amplifier of the wanted TV and maybe satellite and radio signals of course) it's just a potentially large *antenna* for any interference, whether it comes from the distribution system amplifier blocks, other people's plasma TVs (yes, they are connected to the system, so any noise they create can pass along the coax, usually on the braid, interestingly, not necessarily just the inner as most people would think)
      All properties fed by the communal system could be either the source of or affected by common-mode interference on the communal coax system.
      There is a very small chance that the communal system itself is oscillating and causing a interfering signal, though that's rare on professional/commercial systems like that. More common on small house "boosters" by the way. Even then, any such spurious oscillation usually affects VHF and TV signals rather than HF and LF/MF signals (LF/MF= Low / Medium Frequency, the part of the spectrum where the ADSL signals are) It could of course, be a noisy PSU for the communal system, but where getting of on a limb a bit for now.

      Put more simply, it's a big web of wires, and there could be noise coming from the ends OR the centre, or maybe picked up somewhere in between. A big web of wires makes a big, bad antenna for interference.

      The bit about the coax not being up to spec isn't usually relevant at all for a/vDSL interference ("REIN") becuase the communal system doesn't operate at the same frequencies. The coax will likely be fine in this case, ass it's likely to be "common-mode" interference, (that's what I mean by "on the outside braid" of the coax ) Better quality coax is unlikely to solve your problem. If the TV/radio/sat signals are fine, then the coax is fine. Coax *can* leak the inner signal outside., but in this case it's at completely the wrong frequencies, so very unlikely to be your problem. (Though you never really know with these things until you finally cure it haha)

      The common-mode problem (on almost any conductors, not just coax or phone lines*) can be dealt with by clip-on ferrite chokes, carefully selected, and applied to the outside of the coax system, if (and only if) that's the problem. They could be a complete waste of money - you need loads of clip-on ferrites, meaning something like 20-30 minimum, to even start to clamp off the medium frequencies for adsl/vdsl if they are on the coax outer. That's because at low frequencies these clip-on ferrites have very little effect. They are far better at VHF and higher frequencies. In fact, you often see them on USB or power cables to laptops, they are to deal with VHF or UHF noise on the cables (common-mode).

      (* I've even seen two parallel copper water pipes have significant common-mode interference currents)

      It's also possible to put ferrites on your ADSL lead, in which case (because the cable is thinner and more flexible) you can wind several turns on the same size of ferrite clip/clamp that you can only get 1 run of coax through. That dramatically increases the effect of the single ferrite, so you may only need a few instead on 20 or 30.

      Random ferrites bought off ebay are usually useless for this though, ferrite (and dust-iron) cores are graded into different performance characteristics, so don;t work at low frequencies at all, some are designed for low frequency use and not high use. horses for courses.
      In fact, the RF3 is a common-mode choke that does the same thing as the ferrites, so it's good to know you already have that fitted. It may need more help from ferrites, or maybe the problem is somewhere else entirely. Throwing random ferrites at the problem is usually fruitless.

      Personally, I'm thinking: dodgy filter, dodgy fone, or dodgy line (especially a high resistance fault in one leg, unbalancing the line at radio frequencies. All three would make your system prone to interference pickup from other things/equipment that *aren't* faulty (ie: operating normally/legally) Time and SNR plots fro routerstats will tell.

      If it is a problem in your kit (or BTOR/Sky's) it's known a "susceptibility", if caused by a fault, fix the fault. If caused by poor equipment at your end, fix your kit. Only if the communal system is truly faulty could you reasonably expect for it to be fixed.
      Us interference hunters will always have their suspects, though everything is innocent until *proven* guilty It could also be a combination of many different things. Fun eh?

      The Routerstat plots will be good to see, and if you can print or save them for the SFI guy to see (show him this tread if you like) it may give him a clue.
      Post them here as you get them, I'm getting email alerts to this thread so I should be able to reply within 24 hours hopefully.

      Gord

      PS: This is a long shot - but if there is a radio ham (a real licensed one, not just a CB fanatic) living in your communal system area, see if you can have a friendly chat with him. They are experts at finding and curing interference of all forms. Make it clear to him at the start that you're not complaining about him haha - they'll get worried and clam up. They do interference training as part of their qualifications you see, very handy people.
      Just print this off and show him, they can be a mine of info and may have already cured the same problem for their own ADSL, you never know. The same things that interfere with broadband interfere with radio ham reception. Plasma TVs and homeplugs are notorious, as are cheap chinese PSUs
      Last edited by gord.s; 30-08-13 at 04:43 AM. Reason: typos, typos, typos v2

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      Re: Rein issue

      Rein issue-noisemargin-2013aug30-faceplate-fitted.jpg
      this was the overnight router stats with no phone line attached
      i will do a test socket one starting tonight with brand new filter in place and no phone line attached
      i was in the neighbours house across landing from me last night he has 3meg connection with about 700 upload and give or take the same line attenuation i did notice his upload noise margin was 13db stable mines is around 16-18db he has done a full circle of ISPS trying to solve the problem
      i do have a plasma tv in livingroom and the noise i hear from it with am radio its loud lol
      i know my brother has a few ferrite clips that he got with his tv think i will borrow a few and fit on the plasma

      the one below is an old one please ignore
      Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Rein issue-noisemargin-2013aug29-1534.jpg  

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      Re: Rein issue

      aha, plasma onsite - joy oh joy lol


      So, two VERY important questions -

      1 - did you turn the plasma TV on about 7-40-ish until just 8am this morning? Or if not on and watching, but maybe on on standby because you turned the plug on at the wall to turn the radio/whatever on, so TV PSU started up into standby?

      and/or

      2 - did you use the landline, or did someone ring you around the same times above ?

      (A ringing voltage from someone ringing you can upset a ropey filter (or a damaged modem front-end for that matter, though they are normally immune to it -they are designed very rugged, though the front-end can go faulty sometimes.

      also, a bonus question:
      3 - on the 29th (Thursday) what happened in your house around 3pm?

      Good graphs, the second one (which you actually say to ignore) actually shows a nasty drop in SNR at around 8am too, so maybe the morning TV is a regular event for you? Or maybe a quick google for news and weather on the plasma? Or laptop? or, something else? Anything that's powered by electric (even battery powered, though that's more rare) could be a suspect.
      Could be your hairdryer after your morning shower too, the motors can be very noisy indeed.

      Think about your daily routine, if you have one (I don't, I'm a random semi-insomniac sleeper, so don't be ashamed to say you lie in bed until noon haha)

      We're starting to get somewhere, even if we rule out the TV and filters/fones. These plots are very handy for the SFI guy too, being dated and timed, though he may insist on covering all his bases in the test routine anyways - that's fine. A printout is best, though having them ready on the PC all in a series so easily found is good enough.

      It could still be a faulty PSTN line that is susceptible to EMI ("REIN"), fixing the line may improve immunity to the point where it isn't a problem.

      I'm looking at the plasma with a nasty stare though for now, unless you prove otherwise

      Hold the ferrite clips, if you clip them on now, you may half-cure the problem and make it harder to find. For example, the interference could be on the mains lead (and then around the houie mains wiring as a big antenna) , the speaker leads (even the internal ones!), the coax lead (and around hundreds of metres of cabling all around the block), HDMI leads, scarts/etc/etc/etc
      Prove the cause first, then we can talk tactics. The plasma may be innocent, or at least, not for this particular problem fat chance

     

     
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