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    Noise margin decreasing

    This is a discussion on Noise margin decreasing within the Sky Broadband help forums, part of the Sky Broadband help and support category; Originally Posted by IAmNotTheEnemy you've already been told that's irrelevent by an ex- BT engineer so why tell people to ...

    1. #41
      rhforrester's Avatar
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      Re: Noise margin decreasing

      Quote Originally Posted by IAmNotTheEnemy View Post
      you've already been told that's irrelevent by an ex-BT engineer so why tell people to break the BT T&C's by playing with their phone sockets??

      Chances are the wiring was loose when you did it and once tightened you got a better sync, leading you to believe the wires were the wrong way round...
      That is your opinion, I can only quote on something that has worked for me... It does happen. Trust me on this, when I had a problem, four BT Engineers came out, The first three kept passing it up the line. The BT Open reach Engineer ( who has worked for 27 years with BT and is still employed advised me to do this and it worked.. For example if I went to my master socket just now and swapped the connection around , my line would drop to 1.5 meg.... I know as I have done this..... As mentioned above it worked , I did not have any loose connection, if i did the three BT engineers would have fixed them...... They did replace the master socket twice ( however they did not replace it with the new master socket)


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    3. #42
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      Re: Noise margin decreasing

      The only time polarity matters on phone lines is after the master socket, because the run to any extension has three lines and if you reverse the connections to 5 and 2 on one of them and then plug a phone in, you can end up with two bells in series across the line, depending on your exchange, this results in a continious ringing (or whatever on modern phones) assuming they need the ring line. It also used to matter on sharied lines, when one side of the bell was connected to earth. However on modern lines, and for BB whichever way the line connects to A and B of the master makes no differance, However if you wish to check yours then check with a DC muilt-meter for around 50V, the line to A being positive. If you check between A and earth then the may be a low voltage reading depending on your distance from the exchange, B to earth will give a higher reading (maybe around 55v) as you are now measuring the unbalanced voltage, as opposed to the voltage across the balanced pair of the line.
      Quite a good check of a line, to see if both haves (wires of a pair) are resonably balanced, is to measure B to earth and note the voltage (say 55v) then check A to earth (maybe around 4-5 volts) The voltage across A and B should be the differance between the two. In case you are wondering why B measures high to earth, in telecom circuits positve is earth.
      Last edited by Brian69; 27-06-09 at 02:54 PM.

    4. #43
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      Re: Noise margin decreasing

      Quote Originally Posted by Isitme View Post
      As Brian says, if you are only getting noise when the router is connected, it looks like it may be a faulty router. It is very unlikely all of your filters are faulty. If you have an ADSL filtered faceplate, you don't need loose filters, provided you are plugging into the faceplate and it is wired properly. Follow Brian's advice at (2) above and see if your problem goes.

      Don't phone BT if you are only getting noise with the router connected, they will charge you as the fault appears to be in your equipment.
      Okay, thanks.

      In the rare odd 5 minutes the internet has been up i've been looking around and have found something that sounds very similar to what's happening:
      ~ adsl only works when the phone is being used.

      * Check filters and internal wiring.
      * Check for noise on the line which may help identify the problem by doing a "quiet line test".
      (Dial 17070 and select option 2).
      * If so - Possibly a fault on the actual phone line perhaps due to worn cables or water on the line.
      There may be times when a cable or joint is only slightly damaged/corroded and shows no immediate problem, however the damage is sufficient to increase resistance on the line.
      When the phone line is in use, it generates a small electrical current which is needed to carry the voice signal. This current helps reduce resistance on the line and can be sufficient to "bridge the gap" just enough to carry the adsl signal. This is known as a High Open or High Resistance Fault.
      Source: ::. Kitz - ADSL Line + Connection problems .::

      Last night whilst I was waiting on the phone for an hour, the internet didn't drop at all. It does sometimes connect without the phone but only lasts for a maximum of roughly 5 minutes with the noise margin fluctuating a lot, most of the time below 6.

      What do you think? I can understand if Sky want to try a new router first, and have no problem in trying, but as I said this is exactly what is happening. I can hear some really high pitched noises sometimes & it sort of explains the crackling when I pick up the phone sometimes.

      I assume an Openreach engineer would understand if I showed them that?

      Cheers
      Last edited by gareth86; 07-05-10 at 11:45 AM.
      Gareth

    5. #44
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      Re: Noise margin decreasing

      Yes they would understand that o.k. The way all this works (getting Openreach out) Is that Sky have to request Openreach to attend you, Its because you are Sky's customer not Openreach's and it is Sky that will be paying so they want to be sure it is not the router, as it costs them a lot less to send out a router than arrange an Openreach visit.
      You may be luckly and it is the router, its a pity that you do not have an old one you could try, even without the password it would connect with the exchange and if the connection was then stable you would have the answer.
      If a replacement router does not solve the problem, then it is back to Openreach.

    6. #45
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      Re: Noise margin decreasing

      Quote Originally Posted by Brian69 View Post
      Yes they would understand that o.k. The way all this works (getting Openreach out) Is that Sky have to request Openreach to attend you, Its because you are Sky's customer not Openreach's and it is Sky that will be paying so they want to be sure it is not the router, as it costs them a lot less to send out a router than arrange an Openreach visit.
      You may be luckly and it is the router, its a pity that you do not have an old one you could try, even without the password it would connect with the exchange and if the connection was then stable you would have the answer.
      If a replacement router does not solve the problem, then it is back to Openreach.
      I do have an old Speedtouch 510 & have previously got my pass from the router so I tried that. (never got around to getting one with better wireless though, so continued to use the Sky Netgear) The Speedtouch also kept disconnecting and synced lower (at non-consistent speeds). It's not a great router, doesn't even show attenuation or noise margin, does the job though. I normally use it as a hub/switch with DHCP turned off. Only found out today how to reset it though - sorry, forgot to include this.

      I guess they'll still want to try a new router, depends if they take my word for it. Up to them if they want to save a router or not.

      Thanks

      P.S. The Line attenuation is commonly high (35+) now than normal (still get a few) so fingers crossed my whole line goes soon.
      Last edited by gareth86; 07-05-10 at 11:45 AM.
      Gareth

    7. #46
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      Re: Noise margin decreasing

      Yes they will still want to try a replacement, but as your old Speedtouch still kept disconnecting (never mind it's stats if it just held up that would have been a step forward) it looks like a line problem.

    8. #47
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      Re: Noise margin decreasing

      * Check for noise on the line which may help identify the problem by doing a "quiet line test".
      (Dial 17070 and select option 2).
      Remember when you do this test only the phone you are checking on must be plugged in and this must be straight into the Test socket.

      TomD


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    9. #48
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      Re: Noise margin decreasing

      Quote Originally Posted by Isitme View Post
      Remember when you do this test only the phone you are checking on must be plugged in and this must be straight into the Test socket.
      Tried that before the engineer came. Just repeats "Quiet Line Test" over and over? The Openreach engineer also done this before he left and said everything was fixed. There's only noise with the router plugged in & the phone is not in use, so nobody ever notices it. I'm almost sure it's a High Resistance Fault. If I turn off the router, turn on again I can hear some high pitch noises & some crackling as it's trying to connect to the exchange and messing with the voice signal? Unless this is finally driving me crazy. But yeah, HR fault seems to fit my problems so perfectly.

      Found this guy here who had exactly the same problem:
      Sky tech support rant. - Xaprief Forums

      What a frustrating fault, so hard to get through to people who can do anything about it. Including explaining that i've already tried filters, router etc (yet having to do it again) just to be passed to higher tech, then having to wait even more. I can't believe Openreach would've not checked this? Wish I had researched this before they came. Seems unfair that Sky have to pay for another visit when Openreach didn't fix the problem properly?

      Thanks
      Last edited by gareth86; 07-05-10 at 11:45 AM.
      Gareth

    10. #49
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      Re: Noise margin decreasing

      They can be a bugger to trace, but yours should not be too much of a problem as it is there most of the time. What will prob happen is that your connection will get transfered onto a spare line back to the exchange, if there is a spare.
      Last edited by Brian69; 28-06-09 at 02:11 AM.

    11. #50
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      Re: Noise margin decreasing

      WHAT YOU THINK MY STATS LOOK OK BT SAY 5120 KBPS .

      ADSL Link Downstream Upstream
      Connection Speed 10234 kbps 1022 kbps
      Line Attenuation 37 db 21 db
      Noise Margin 14 db 8 db

     

     
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