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    Information Please!

    This is a discussion on Information Please! within the Sky Broadband help forums, part of the Sky Broadband help and support category; No, I completely understand the point that is trying to be made, but it is not a valid point in ...

    1. #21
      Netgeezer's Avatar
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      Re: Information Please!

      No, I completely understand the point that is trying to be made, but it is not a valid point in this respect because two discrete issues are being compared and they do not apply. All the Deregulation of BT's monopoly fo the wires (LLU) did was to open the market up to a free market of ISPs. Thats it, nothing more.

      There are plenty of ISPs who are "wires only" where you have to supply your own router. Sky is not one of those. The point really is as straightforward as that. There is absolutely no incumbency upon Sky from OFCOM to open their [rented from BT] wires up to other people's equipment. OFCOM in this respect is irrelevant.

      The reference to OFCOM making BT open up its exchanges is another discussion altogether. The fact that Sky decide to market an end-to-end service (i.e. with their equipment at both ends of the wire) is a commercial one and nothing to do with "free markets", OFCOM or anything else. Sky could have chosen to be "wires-only" but they chose the equally legitimate in UK law method that they have.

      We, as their customers, have to be content with that proposition.
      It's not that I'm so smart, it's just that I stay with problems longer.
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    3. #22
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      Re: Information Please!

      You are right in that in the end it is our choice to give our custom to sky or not. But you are wrong in your view that it is right for Sky to restrict it's users to only their equipment, just as it would be wrong for BT to only allow their routers to be used, or their telephones.

    4. #23
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      Re: Information Please!

      Ok, lets explore that a bit, I am at risk of repeating myself otherwise.

      In what way is it in fact wrong of Sky to sell an end-to-end service as opposed to a wires only service? Now don't give me any moralising "it should be..." stuff. I'm after cold hard fact because there is nothing that I can see that makes what Sky are doing in any way wrong in terms of law (tacit, tort or in fact).

      In thinking about your rebuttal (oooh, how formal) I would encourage you to take a commercial business focus rather than an IT enthusiasts approach. If you were Mr Murdoch what would you do, and why?
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    5. #24
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      Re: Information Please!

      If I were Mr Murdoch I would provide routers for those that wanted them and tech support. If you wanted to use your own router I would provide no tech support and no reduction in payment. The choice would then be mine. Now you and I both know that most people would take the easy option and go with the sky router, but if that fails (mine was faulty but I repaired it) you could use your own.
      I cannot see why Sky would get upset about this, I do take your point that they (sky) have plans for broadband (nobody would buy Easynet just to give us all BB at knock down prices) but very few would use their own kit.
      It is all about choice.

      I do not draw a comparison with sat tv, there are third party rights issues involved here and Sky need to take every precaution to prevent compromise of their system.
      Last edited by Brian69; 24-03-08 at 09:33 PM.

    6. #25
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      Re: Information Please!

      No fancy words ()...just a point of view...

      As I see it, Sky sells a service and demands that you only use their product. I appreciate their investment but that can only be described as restrictive. One can draw many analogies but, for example, and moving out of the IT/Telecomms arena, I see it no different in reality to a large hotel chain. It would obviously be to their advantage to have you eat and drink in their establishment....they have invested a lot of time, effort and capital in their venture - much better if you don't just sleep there! But they don't. You are quite free to eat and drink elsewhere. I realise it is a broad based analogy but the point is valid.
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    7. #26
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      Re: Information Please!

      Good points both. The parallel with Sat TV is inescapable (not too long for you Cardiff ? ) because of Sky's heritage, that is their core business. And therefore it is, to them, entirely logical to sell an all-inclusive service rather than a wires-only. Lets face it, there are plenty of wires-only services out there for reasonably comparable prices. If I really wanted it all to myself I would go to the likes of Demon.net, early pioneers in Internet provision in the UK and right up there with their ADSL services. They'd let you hang a dead cat on the end of your wires if it would deliver ADSL to you.

      But back to Sky, their proposition is well known and understood by all that take it up. Of course people will want to do their own thing with the service - even bust the data caps that they have agreed to. However, and this is important, if Sky weaken their grip on the T&Cs anarchy will ensue - and they cannot allow that to happen. It would be commercial suicide for their ADSL business.
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    8. #27
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      Re: Information Please!

      Netgeezer.
      What utter piffle. How on earth will anarchy ensue if a few people use their own routers?

    9. #28
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      Re: Information Please!

      A few? How many is that then? And where does it stop even? Y'see my point that I keep trying to reinforce is simply that we have all accepted Sky's T&Cs, at that point we have obligated ourselves to stick to them. The anarchy comes in where other Sky rules then get bent a little, then a bit more until they, too, are broken. Eventually it becomes something of a free-for-all.

      Sky, as have a few others (i.e. Orange), have chosen to differentiate themselves from the crowd. It is a conscious commercial decision that they have made and no doubt is explained in one of their annual prospectuses. If we want wires-only there are too many to mention to choose from who would welcome our business. But for those ISPs who have chosen the Sky route they, as does Sky, police their T&Cs in respect to their supplied equipment being in place.

      And so the choice is ours to make as always, but we have no remit to break the very T&Cs we have agreed to.
      It's not that I'm so smart, it's just that I stay with problems longer.
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    10. #29
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      Re: Information Please!

      bt started this system of password and username held within router bussiness

      the home hub is the same as sky routers in that its hard but not impossible to get details and bt do ask but not insist that you use the home hub, they also hit you with non-suppport issues and blame the router if not a hub for any problems with adsl

      the original bt voyager routers were only usable on bt adsl cant remember the models but they needed to be hacked to get them to work with other isp's but they didnt always work after the hack
      Last edited by nodrog; 27-03-08 at 10:21 PM.

    11. #30
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      Re: Information Please!

      Netgeezer.
      This fear that the entire Sky world will be brought to it's knees by a few (alright lets say 100,000) own router users is laughably

     

     
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