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    Information Please!

    This is a discussion on Information Please! within the Sky Broadband help forums, part of the Sky Broadband help and support category; Thanks for the discussion and the points you and reddwarfcrew raised. As I said at the start, I find the ...

    1. #11
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      Re: Information Please!

      Thanks for the discussion and the points you and reddwarfcrew raised.

      As I said at the start, I find the v2 Router works OK for me at the present time and would only consider using my own whilst awaiting a replacement from Sky. I really could not see Sky objecting to that.....but who knows!?
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    3. #12
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      Re: Information Please!

      Quote Originally Posted by Cardiff2008 View Post
      As I said at the start, I find the v2 Router works OK for me at the present time and would only consider using my own whilst awaiting a replacement from Sky. I really could not see Sky objecting to that.....but who knows!?
      If ever you need a replacement then I can't see that being a problem as it should be for a limited time anyway but hopefully that situation will never arise.

    4. #13
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      Re: Information Please!

      To understand the Sky requirement to use their routers you need to understand a bit about Sky itself. They come from the Satellite TV set-top-box (STB) world where everything is under their control. There have been huge benefits in doing this as they are able to present a consistent EPG and all manner of other controlly type stuff. It has all generally been for the good of the customer experience. And so Sky have tried to extend that paradigm into the Broadband world.

      The Netgear v1 router had ruined Sky's plans for a nirvana in Broadband and my info is that they have worked long and hard getting Netgear to cough up code sufficiently worthy of the Sky name. What they didn't want to do is push out yet another set of buggy code, so they have been very cautious and diligent this time round.

      The problem with letting their customers use their own router equipment is one of customer experience. All that Sky do in the future will be based around what they know about the equipment they have supplied into the field. If there are any "illegitimate" equipments out there that particular customer may well not be able to enjoy any new product or functionality. The T&Cs merely formalise that position and give Sky a get-out should they detect equipment not of their provision on the line.

      The beauty of having a Sky router in your home is that the demarcation point becomes that router itself. Other ISPs demarc a the DSLAM port, and the rest is down to you.

      What does this mean in reality with Sky? Probably not an awful lot of difference to any other ISP but it does give you a better lever to deal with Sky's customer service when resolving issues.

      What do you gain by using another brand of router? Well, in truth if you are one of the lucky V1 (white) router users who are not having problems there is nothing to be gained. Very many, however, have had a bad experience with the V1 code and so an alternative may be a better bet (to Sky) than the customer leaving to go elsewhere. That may explain the softer line being taken at the moment. But V2 (black) router owners have absolutely no real need to change to another device.

      In the end, as NewsreadeR says, it is your call what you do. But it will be in contravention of a set of T&Cs that you have already agreed to out of your own free will. So if Sky do subsequently get a bit huffy with you there really is no-one else to shoulder the blame than yourself. Its a bit like a cyclist going through a red light, because he always does, and gets the **** when his collar is felt by the local bobby (whats one of those I hear you asking )
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    5. #14
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      Re: Information Please!

      Quote Originally Posted by Netgeezer View Post
      To understand the Sky requirement to use their routers you need to understand a bit about Sky itself. They come from the Satellite TV set-top-box (STB) world where everything is under their control. There have been huge benefits in doing this as they are able to present a consistent EPG and all manner of other controlly type stuff. It has all generally been for the good of the customer experience. And so Sky have tried to extend that paradigm into the Broadband world.
      But that's a philosophy that runs counter to the prevailing Western idea that the consumer benefits from more choice rather than less. For example, with Sky refusing to make CAMs available for NDS Videoguard, there's no real competition for direct-to-home satellite receivers in the UK. Many of my colleagues tell me that TiVo's functionality makes Sky+ look rather pathetic, but can I get a TiVo box for direct-to-home satellite services in this country? No, I can't.

      Sky can tell me till they're blue in the face that their policy of restricting choice is something that benefits everyone, but I'm afraid I'm just not buying it.

    6. #15
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      Re: Information Please!

      Hi Netgeezer.
      30 years ago the same during the run-up to BT privatisation, the same argument was made about telephones in the home (everbody using the same equipment makes support easy etc). It did not wash then, just as your argument does not wash now. Yes it allows sky to offer more services in the furture knowing that we are all using the same kit, and saying that if you don't like it you can go to another ISP is not good enough. Sky have little to fear from this as most will use the router Sky provide anyway, so lets have a bit of choice.

    7. #16
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      Re: Information Please!

      Quote Originally Posted by Brian69 View Post
      Yes it allows sky to offer more services in the furture knowing that we are all using the same kit, and saying that if you don't like it you can go to another ISP is not good enough.
      Your BT analogy does not fit in this case precisely because you do have choice, that being the choice of another ISP. Back in the days you are referring to (and in which I was actively engaged in dealing with the Post Office and then BT) there really was no choice, a monopoly existed. These days there is no monopoly, we all have the choice of any number of ISPs to choose from. That your choice of ISP does not fit the notion a complete free-for-all is not relevant. With complete free will, and not a little financial incentive, the majority of us visiting this forum have made a conscious choice of Sky, no one forced us.

      And so my point stands - through a self-willingness to take on the service and in doing so beholding ourselves to Sky's T&Cs we are all on a very weak footing indeed to then expect Sky to accept that we can break these same T&Cs at our own personal desire. What other T&Cs could we then expect to break? And then the argument goes "why have T&Cs at all?". But of course that would be commercial suicide because we could then decide that we don't actually want to pay for the service at all.

      I don't know if any of you have run your own business, but if you have then you might have an appreciation of the stakes involved with your customers tearing up the rulebook, your rulebook. It is no different just because Sky is a large corporation. The rules of the game are the same, it is only the scale that is different.
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    8. #17
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      Re: Information Please!

      Hi Netgeezer.
      The BT analogy does hold water.The point is at the time there was a great worry that people would all go and plug in any kit they could lay their hands on and the whole network would grind to a halt. Sky use the same argument saying that you must use their kit or all hell will break loose.
      Sky cannot have it both ways, it is a free market that has alowed them to set up their TV and BB enterprise, so lets have less restictive pracitice from them in this matter of routers.

    9. #18
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      Re: Information Please!

      I thought this Thread might be finished but the posts since my last one are interesting.

      I can understand Sky's 'argument' as put forward and I personally consider the BT analogy to be proper and relevant.

      I have said that I would only use my own Router under exceptional circumstances but it would be my choice to do so. Sky's T&C's give me Hobson's Choice which, in a free market, I must admit to finding 'oppressive'. I could understand Sky's position a little more if it provided a totally free service but I am paying for it. Admittedly less than many other ISP's but a cost nevertheless.

      I write the above as a personal view. I have 'signed up' to Sky knowing their T&C's but - in a free society - I reserve the right to comment adversely if I feel the need to do so!
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    10. #19
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      Re: Information Please!

      There seems to be a theme here that "free market" gives one the right to do whatever one likes with the service supplied by a provider. That cannot be the case with any degree of reasonableness. Otherwise it will be pointless establishing a business in the UK.

      The point is the "free market" does not need to exist within any particular company's walls. The "free market" is your choice of which supplier to go to. It does not give licence to do what you will though, and it would be unreasonable for that to be the case.

      The BT analogy is so distant from what exists today with the choice of over 30 different ISPs. Back when BT first formed there was only one single choice. There were no other providers of network or services [across BT wires] until LLU and WLR came along.

      We'll probably never agree on this point - but I personally accept any businesses right to place conditions and reservations it sees fit upon the services it supplies. The true "free market" will then dictate whether or not the business thrives or sinks into oblivion.
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    11. #20
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      Re: Information Please!

      Again you are missing the point. There are only lots of providers (sky included) because the market is free, not lots of provides dispite it. Sky and all Isp's have to operate within OFCOM rules which forced BT to open up their exchanges to other providers. Sky seem happy to take advantage of this, but are unwilling to do as others have done and allow users their own kit.

     

     
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