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    Becoming hacked off now ... :(

    This is a discussion on Becoming hacked off now ... :( within the Sky Broadband help forums, part of the Sky Broadband help and support category; If it is now fine, then that easily suggests that it could be a wireless problem (ie the interference whatever ...

    1. #11
      reddwarfcrew's Avatar
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      Re: Becoming hacked off now ... :(

      If it is now fine, then that easily suggests that it could be a wireless problem (ie the interference whatever it was is now gone).

      As you should know, signal strength means absolutely nothing. Its quality that matters, equally you can't put that much emphasis on what windows reports.

      I don't mean to sound harsh, but as an rf engineer you didn't understand what the 108Mb reported connection meant, so please don't tell me I'm talking rubbish.

      I'm not saying that it is defo a wireless problem, but there is a good chance that it is.

      You are hear asking for help, but yet you are discounting possible solutions without even being prepared to try them out.

      I'll leave you to it now as clearly you know best. Remember, that if you try to report this to sky, they wont be interested until you try wired.


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    3. #12
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      Re: Becoming hacked off now ... :(

      Also this is my stats when things are ok

      /usr/sbin/adslctl: ADSL driver and PHY status
      Status: Showtime Channel: FAST, Upstream rate = 762 Kbps, Downstream rate = 5322 Kbps
      Link Power State: L0
      Mode: ADSL2+
      Channel: Fast
      Trellis: ON
      Line Status: No Defect
      Training Status: Showtime
      Down Up
      SNR (dB): 9.2 10.0
      Attn(dB): 46.5 27.2
      Pwr(dBm): 1.3 12.4
      Max(Kbps): 5476 880
      Rate (Kbps): 5322 762
      G.dmt framing
      K: 13(0) 14
      R: 8 16
      S: 16 16
      D: 64 4
      ADSL2 framing
      MSGc: 58 124
      B: 12 13
      M: 16 16
      T: 13 1
      R: 8 16
      S: 1.2431 8.7272
      L: 1390 220
      D: 64 4
      Counters
      SF: 75039 75037
      SFErr: 8 1
      RS: 3902082 318907
      RSCorr: 2825 2
      RSUnCorr: 94 0

      HEC: 8 0
      OCD: 0 0
      LCD: 0 0
      Total Cells: 15225791 2149765
      Data Cells: 497743 1224879
      Drop Cells: 0
      Bit Errors: 0 0

      ES: 4 1
      SES: 2 0
      UAS: 28 1583
      Total time = 20 min 56 sec
      SF = 75039
      CRC = 8
      LOS = 3
      LOF = 0
      ES = 4
      Latest 1 day time = 20 min 56 sec
      SF = 75039
      CRC = 8
      LOS = 3
      LOF = 0
      ES = 4
      Latest 15 minutes time = 5 min 56 sec
      SF = 22085
      CRC = 0
      LOS = 0
      LOF = 0
      ES = 0
      Previous 15 minutes time = 15 min 0 sec
      SF = 52954
      CRC = 8
      LOS = 3
      LOF = 0
      ES = 4
      Previous 1 day time = 0 sec
      SF = 0
      CRC = 0
      LOS = 0
      LOF = 0
      ES = 0

    4. #13
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      Re: Becoming hacked off now ... :(

      Quote Originally Posted by reddwarfcrew View Post
      If it is now fine, then that easily suggests that it could be a wireless problem (ie the interference whatever it was is now gone).

      As you should know, signal strength means absolutely nothing. Its quality that matters, equally you can't put that much emphasis on what windows reports.

      I don't mean to sound harsh, but as an rf engineer you didn't understand what the 108Mb reported connection meant, so please don't tell me I'm talking rubbish.

      I'm not saying that it is defo a wireless problem, but there is a good chance that it is.

      You are hear asking for help, but yet you are discounting possible solutions without even being prepared to try them out.

      I'll leave you to it now as clearly you know best. Remember, that if you try to report this to sky, they wont be interested until you try wired.
      I do understand the difference between Rx power and SNR (or as you call qulaity)
      It may well be a wireless problem but as an RF engineer I am fairly sure that my setup points to it being more likely to be a system orientated problem as The Doctor eluded to here:
      (The problem is your on adsl2+ and fastpath and uncapped. You need someone at sky to resolve this for you)
      This is the sort of help that I was trying to muster as i do not have much expertise in this area.

      I apologise if i seem 'ungrateful' but that is simply not true I am just using what i know in an attempt to be more direct in finding a solution...........a mark of a truly great engineer (Mate - I am joking here BTW)

      Cheers

      Oh yeah and i never said that you were talking rubbish!
      Last edited by Snood; 21-07-07 at 08:24 PM.

    5. #14
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      Re: Becoming hacked off now ... :(

      okay, can you just confirm one thing then as maybe we are misinterpreting the problem.

      in your first post you said you are getting speeds of 148k. The stats you also posted showed you were synced at over 4000k.

      Was your speed test of 148 when the router was synched at over 4000 or are you saying that the router sometimes syncs at 148k?

      If it is the former, then I'm convinced that its not the connection as sky is sending you a speed of over 4000, but your pc is sometimes only picking up 148k. This points to one of 2 things. Either a faulty router or a set up problem with your PC (more than likely a wireless issue). being on adsl2+ and fastpath would have nothing to do with it unless your noise margin is dropping below 7db when you get the slow speed (but your stats show a NM of 10db).

      If it is the latter, then I have totally misinterpreted your original post and as such I would be talking rubbish, for which I apologise.

      Hope that helps.

      (Ps the reported SNR is nothing to do with the wireless signal being emitted by the router).
      Last edited by reddwarfcrew; 21-07-07 at 09:14 PM.

    6. #15
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      Re: Becoming hacked off now ... :(

      Hope no-one minds me adding my 2p worth:

      Wi-fi (wireless) connections are notoriously fickle and the Sky router has built a steady reputation for a particularly bad wireless implementation. As has been said, the wireless signal strength only offers an indication of the signal quality and has often (very often) been shown to be meaningless. Wireless throughput is more reliant on the signal to noise ratio than the signal strength. In the 10 months I've been participating in the forum fluctuating throughput figures have always, if my memory is correct, been down to the wireless connection and disappear with wired. You may of course be the exception.

      As for The Doctor's comment that "The problem is your on adsl2+ and fastpath and uncapped", that is completely baffling and I'm looking forward to hearing what this means as your stats seem fine though your sync is a little low for your attenuation. Possibly there's some noise issue somewhere or more probably you just booted at a high noise time, hence your current 9.2db noise margin and lowish sync (also I doubt you're on fastpath but that's a separate story).
      Last edited by Saturday; 21-07-07 at 09:39 PM.

    7. #16
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      Re: Becoming hacked off now ... :(

      Quote Originally Posted by reddwarfcrew View Post
      okay, can you just confirm one thing then as maybe we are misinterpreting the problem.

      in your first post you said you are getting speeds of 148k. The stats you also posted showed you were synced at over 4000k.

      Was your speed test of 148 when the router was synched at over 4000 or are you saying that the router sometimes syncs at 148k?

      If it is the former, then I'm convinced that its not the connection as sky is sending you a speed of over 4000, but your pc is sometimes only picking up 148k. This points to one of 2 things. Either a faulty router or a set up problem with your PC (more than likely a wireless issue). being on adsl2+ and fastpath would have nothing to do with it unless your noise margin is dropping below 7db when you get the slow speed (but your stats show a NM of 10db).

      If it is the latter, then I have totally misinterpreted your original post and as such I would be talking rubbish, for which I apologise.

      Hope that helps.

      (Ps the reported SNR is nothing to do with the wireless signal being emitted by the router).
      Cheers,
      This is all helpful but please realise thast I fully understand RF propagation, SNR and power levels etc etc. I was mearly guessing that the SNR between the router and my PC should be quite good seen as they are LOS and a very short distance unless there is some external 2.4GHz source nearby that is uber strong and intermittent?

      The router always syncs at 5 - 6mb but i get 4 - 4.5mb DL from thinkbroadband most times but lately and intermittently i get 100kb which is odd.
      So either a strong 2.4GHz external noise source which is on intermittently
      or
      An exhcnage / system problem
      Or
      My PC has an intermittent problem

      Also i am not sure how true this is 'then I'm convinced that its not the connection as sky is sending you a speed of over 4000.' Does the sync rate or negotiated rate mean that much either?

      Also if anyone can comment on my bad DL rate cfg file showing Pdown as 836dBm????????????

      Cheers

    8. #17
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      Re: Becoming hacked off now ... :(

      Quote Originally Posted by Saturday View Post
      Hope no-one minds me adding my 2p worth:

      Wi-fi (wireless) connections are notoriously fickle and the Sky router has built a steady reputation for a particularly bad wireless implementation. As has been said, the wireless signal strength only offers an indication of the signal quality and has often (very often) been shown to be meaningless. Wireless throughput is more reliant on the signal to noise ratio than the signal strength. In the 10 months I've been participating in the forum fluctuating throughput figures have always, if my memory is correct, been down to the wireless connection and disappear with wired. You may of course be the exception.

      As for The Doctor's comment that "The problem is your on adsl2+ and fastpath and uncapped", that is completely baffling and I'm looking forward to hearing what this means as your stats seem fine though your sync is a little low for your attenuation. Possibly there's some noise issue somewhere or more probably you just booted at a high noise time, hence your current 9.2db noise margin and lowish sync (also I doubt you're on fastpath but that's a separate story).
      Please do not misinterperet the following. I am mearly propagating information and not simply trying to be clever...

      Also please do not think 'well what you asking questions here for,' I am ok on the RF side but i realise that this forum is awesome for getting valuable Sky system, telecomms and IT expertise which I am not so hot on


      'Wireless signal strength only offers an indication of the signal quality'

      Not really. Signal strength is purely the Rx power level (dBm) only and not quality of service or SNR (quality)


      'Wireless throughput is more reliant on the signal to noise ratio than the signal strength'

      Correct mate. The lower the SNR most digital comms systems (mobile phones etc) reduce the modulation scheme in poor SNR situations. High order modulation schemes require high quality SNRs but can communicate lots of data. As the SNR drops some digital systems can alter thier modulation scheme. In poor SNR situations a lower order offering lower data rates yet a more robust modulation scheme is adopted.

    9. #18
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      Re: Becoming hacked off now ... :(

      Quote Originally Posted by Snood View Post
      Cheers,

      The router always syncs at 5 - 6mb but i get 4 - 4.5mb DL from thinkbroadband most times but lately and intermittently i get 100kb which is odd.

      Cheers
      As mentioned, can you confirm what the SNR figure is when you DL speeds drop. If it is above 7db, then the problem is definitely with either your PC or your wireless set up. No matter how much you want to blame sky or are looking for others to offer sky as the problem, it simply isnt.

      As for wireless..... what wireless adpater are you using? Where is it positioned? How is it connected to the PC? Where is the antenna to the wirelss adapter located.

      The 5-6Mb figure is the speed that the router has negotiated with the exchange. YOU WILL NEVER GET A DL SPEED EQUAL TO THIS. Your speedtest will be around 70-80% of your sync figure, so 4.5DL for a 6Mb sync is perfectly reasonable.

      In the same way that although your wireless connection is reported 108Mb, you will find that wirelessly you would be lucky to get 15Mb across 2 PCs networked together.

      I really appreciated that you know your stuff when it comes to RF, but as you have admitted you don;t when it comes to PC / networks and therefore please take the advice that this forum offers.

      Saturday is an absolute expert on these matters and you can trust explicitly what he says.

      Take some time to read these forums. Take some time to read mine and saturdays various posts if you want to gain some confidence in what we say.

      Good luck with everything.

      PS, 1 last thing. Try a wired connection!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

    10. #19
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      Re: Becoming hacked off now ... :(

      Quote Originally Posted by Snood View Post
      'Wireless signal strength only offers an indication of the signal quality'

      Not really. Signal strength is purely the Rx power level (dBm) only and not quality of service or SNR (quality)
      I think maybe you're being a touch pedantic.

      A low signal strength will probably result in the device not being able to adequately differentiate between noise and signal. A high signal strength on the other hand may or may not support the establishment of the required snr - in simple non technical terms, turning up the volume of a noisy signal won't do much for clarity. So, I think the statement that wireless strength only offers an indication of signal quality i.e. low signal strength will not allow high throughput whereas high signal strength may or may not allow it, is quite reasonable.

      Can we agree on "Wireless signal strength only offers a possible indication of the signal quality"?



      Quote Originally Posted by Snood View Post
      The router always syncs at 5 - 6mb but i get 4 - 4.5mb DL from thinkbroadband most times but lately and intermittently i get 100kb which is odd.
      No not odd. Quite normal actually.

      Your router sync is a measure of the bandwidth the router determines is available following negotiation with the exchange, an assessment of the current line qualities etc. The TCP/IP protocol has a transmission overhead of ~15-20% so if you have a router sync of 5322kbps then a download speed of ~4250kbps would be quite acceptable. Any shortfall i.e. download speed is significantly less than 80% of sync may be down to a number of factors such as:
      • an overloaded test server under reporting the speed
      • incorrect TCP/IP settings
      • a poor wireless connection
      Last edited by Saturday; 22-07-07 at 12:28 AM.

    11. #20
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      Re: Becoming hacked off now ... :(

      Quote Originally Posted by Saturday View Post
      I think maybe you're being a touch pedantic.

      A low signal strength will probably result in the device not being able to adequately differentiate between noise and signal. A high signal strength on the other hand may or may not support the establishment of the required snr - in simple non technical terms, turning up the volume of a noisy signal won't do much for clarity. So, I think the statement that wireless strength only offers an indication of signal quality i.e. low signal strength will not allow high throughput whereas high signal strength may or may not allow it, is quite reasonable.

      Can we agree on "Wireless signal strength only offers a possible indication of the signal quality"?




      No not odd. Quite normal actually.

      Your router sync is a measure of the bandwidth the router determines is available following negotiation with the exchange, an assessment of the current line qualities etc. The TCP/IP protocol has a transmission overhead of ~15-20% so if you have a router sync of 5322kbps then a download speed of ~4250kbps would be quite acceptable. Any shortfall i.e. download speed is significantly less than 80% of sync may be down to a number of factors such as:
      • an overloaded test server under reporting the speed
      • incorrect TCP/IP settings
      • a poor wireless connection
      Thanks for the reply

      Some confusion here perhaps.
      I was saying that the fact that the router always syncs at 5 - 6mb yet i sometimes get 4mb DL and at othertimes I get only 100kb is odd....which it is IMHO.

      I undertsand overheads BTW

      Can we agree on "Wireless signal strength only offers a possible indication of the signal quality"?

      Yes please i am the last person who wants to enter into yet another tech forum knowledge peeing contest...i just want my broadband to stop being intermittently rubbish

      It may well be the wireless connection as you have all suggested. However, because it was so intermittent (sometimes very good and other times very poor) and my setup is static I was wondering if it was a network (sky), IT or exchange issue which i know there is alot of expertise on this forum hence the initial cry for help.

      Anyway I have changed the polarisation of my PC wireless adapter card slightly from being near H to slant linear. Yes i know the Tx antenna on my netgear is set at V but I was recieving some nice multipath signals (the polarisation vector can rotate after each bounce) using H. Anyway this for what ever reason has changed (unless it is all a big coincindence see below) and i am getting better results at near 45 degree slant linear Rx pol. I guess in a multipath rich environement you would expect slant linear to perhaps be more consistent yet sub-optimal.

      Anyway all is good now (DL rate is around 4.3mb as expected post overheads etc) and I thank you all for your help.

      However, if anyone would like to comment on my router Rx power levels for both good DL rate and bad DL rate cases that would be very cool.

      The 1st set of stats posted below are for when the sync is good but DL rate is poor:
      Becoming hacked off now ... :(

      These show a down power level to be 896.0 dBm ??????
      ()

      The 2nd set of stats posted below are for when the sync is good and the DL rate is good (~4mb)

      Becoming hacked off now ... :(

      These show down power to be a more sensible 1.3dBm

      Does this show that my problem is perhaps not the wireless connection and something else and that the wirelss issue is simply a coincidental red herring which is muddying the waters???

      Cheers

     

     
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